MSNBC "The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell" - Transcript: Interview with Reps. Stacey Plaskett, Jared Huffman, and Lloyd Doggett

Interview

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

O`DONNELL:  Leading off our discussion tonight are three Democratic members of Congress, almost a quorum for a subcommittee. Congressman Lloyd Doggett of Texas is a member of the House Ways and Means Committee, Congressman Jared Huffman of California who made news on the Democratic conference call this week which we will get to in just a minute, and Congresswoman Stacey Plaskett from the U.S. Virgin Islands. She is a member of the House Oversight Committee. She was also a senior counsel to former Deputy Attorney General James Comey and served as an acting deputy assistant attorney at the Justice Department.
 
Congresswoman Plaskett, I would like to start with you on your reading of this new information that we`re getting tonight about Rod Rosenstein`s role within the Justice Department where you used to work and his interaction with the president. What is your interpretation of that?
 
REP. STACEY PLASKETT (D-VI):  This is the very reason that members of Congress are asking for an investigation and for testimony notwithstanding the Mueller report being out already. This is subsequent activity that is outside of the report that we need to get to.
 
You know, as Attorney General Barr said, he`s waiting until the plane has landed. Well, the plane is at the gate now. So, we`re ready for investigations and for him to come back and give us some more detail and substance on the process by which this report was actually made public.
 
O`DONNELL:  And Congressman Doggett, you`ve watched a lot of investigations over your career and here we have this report on Rod Rosenstein tonight, in effect fighting for his job, according to the White House sources, and it sounds like saying whatever he needed to say to hold on to that job with the president.
 
REP. LLOYD DOGGETT (D-TX):  It`s very troubling. And I think what we have to do in Congress is fight for democracy. Seldom in recent decades has democracy faced a danger as great as Donald Trump and his sleazy gang. We have to be there, standing up for democracy, recognizing that Rod Rosenstein and Mr. Barr are not going to be any help here.
 
I think our patience should be at an end. Investigate. Do it respectfully.
But when people do not show up to testify, arrest them. Get the jail ready and get the fines ready to ensure that there`s enforcement.
 
O`DONNELL:  Congressman Huffman, this is our first chance to talk since the reports about Speaker Pelosi`s conference call with Democratic members about how to proceed at this point in the investigations of the president.
What can you share with us about your contribution in that call?
 
REP. JARED HUFFMAN (D-CA):  In that call and in other opportunities, my message to colleagues and everyone who will listen to me on this is to think about the downside of not acting in this historic moment that has been forced upon us, really.
 
I am not haunted by the political uncertainty of moving forward and doing our job under the constitution. I am haunted by the thought of not doing that job, especially as the lawlessness and defiance from this president continues unfolding every day.
 
O`DONNELL:  I want to read a report in Yahoo News from Paul Rosenzweig, who was part of Ken Starr`s special prosecutor team, prosecuting -- basically going after President Clinton which led to President Clinton`s impeachment.
"Paul Rosenzweig, who served as a senior counsel to Ken Starr, said that a significant number of his former colleagues from the independent counsel office share his views. My view is that there`s ample reason right now for the House Judiciary Committee to begin an impeachment inquiry and if it were up to me, I would recommend them to impeach," said Rosenzweig.
 
Congresswoman Plaskett, your reaction to that.
 
PLASKETT:  You know, that`s an opinion, and I think we are using our constitutional authority as well as our constitutional obligation to investigate. There`s no constitutional obligation to impeach a president.
There is a constitutional obligation for us to be a check and balance which I think we`re being. And I don`t want us to fall into the same trap that this White House falls into and many of the officials in there that they feel that they have to make themselves heard and make themselves known.
 
The actions of Rosenstein, the actions of Barr are so outside the norms of normal prosecutors that I think the American people want us to move cautiously, want to us give them the full details, but not to be champing at the bit to make ourselves heard and to have our place in history in this time.
 
I think that they want to us to investigate, but they also want us to legislate at the same time. And there are many things that are going on in Congress that the people of this country are not hearing about, because we`ve become obsessed with what`s happening in the Mueller report and with this president in every tweet and every turn that he makes us follow.
 
O`DONNELL:  I want to take a look at two items in a new Washington Post poll. One is 58 percent saying that yes, Donald Trump lied about matters involving the Mueller investigation, 58 percent saying the president lied.
And then, on the other side of it, the question of, should Congress begin impeachment proceedings? And this is the same group that`s 58 percent of whom said the president lied.
 
Only 38 -- sorry, 37 percent say that Congress should begin impeachment proceedings, 56 percent saying they should not begin. Congressman Doggett, what is your reaction to those polls?
 
DOGGETT:  Well, I think that Donald Trump has clearly committed impeachable offenses. And that every day he is in office, the danger to the security of America grows. The job we have is to see that he`s out of office as quickly as possible. But with every Republican except Mitt Romney refusing to even recognize the wrongdoing it may be that the most effective and clearest path to doing that is the 2020 election, not impeachment.
 
At the same time, this is about more than Donald Trump. We really are making a decision here about lawlessness from the chief executive of this country. We`re setting a standard that applies not only this year but for future presidents. I`m troubled. I would not take impeachment off the table. I think we need to investigate promptly and thoroughly and then make a decision about that.
 
O`DONNELL:  Congressman Huffman, how much is the calendar one of the problems here? We`re 18 months away from an election that could change the presidency. When we`ve looked at impeachment proceedings in the past, once you start with hearings in the Judiciary Committee, we`re talking the better part of the year.
 
If they started next week, it would probably take the rest of this year.
They`re obviously not going to start next week nor would they probably be starting next month. And so the calendar seems to be a significant factor in trying to come up with a plan in the House of Representatives.
 
HUFFMAN:  It`s certainly a challenge. But Lawrence, I agree with my colleagues. How we do this matters. And I want to be very clear. Nobody I know of is proposing that we just rush right to an impeachment vote on the floor of the House. We do need to have sober and thoughtful and transparent hearings. We need to make our case to the American people.
 
All of these references to polls. Let`s remember that public opinion is not static. It can change. Our constitutional duty is a lot more static. And I would argue that when you`re presented with the kind of facts that we see before us in this situation, you have an obligation to move forward.
 
I think a lot of that is happening in the context of these investigations.
I`m one member of Congress who feels like it probably should be in the context of an actual impeachment inquiry but the investigations are moving, they`re moving with urgency. I can live with that for now.
 
O`DONNELL:  And Congresswoman Plaskett, as a member of the Oversight Committee, your commit is in a normal mode is in investigative mode. It`s the one committee that is almost always in investigative mode. And so your committee is going to be acting in an investigative mode whether the Judiciary Committee is or isn`t. How do you coordinate the different tracks of investigation that the various committees are following?
 
PLASKETT:  I think that the chairs of the committees are doing a fantastic job with that under the leadership of Speaker Pelosi and really making sure that they each are staying within their lanes, whether that`s Congressman Doggett in Ways and Means in looking at tax issues, the Judiciary Committee looking at the issues that they oversight over, and Oversight who really fall under the umbrella of pretty much all of government making sure that we`re picking up the pieces, as well.
 
You know, we`re already looking at emoluments claws violations as well as campaign finance, along with -- in terms of the obstruction of justice issues. So all of those things, I think, are going to be going on in parallel tracks. And I agree wholeheartedly with my colleagues that we are going to be methodical about this, we`re going to be thoughtful about this, and we`re going to leave nothing unturned.
 
Individuals will have to answer to our committees, whether they try and avoid subpoenas or not. We are going to meet our constitutional obligation and let the chips fall where they may. And we believe that the courts are going to back us up, whether those be fines compelling them to appear or jail time if necessary.
 
O`DONNELL:  I want to get to the subpoena question. Can you all stay with us for across the next commercial break? Because this subpoena question that Congresswoman Plaskett has just brought up is the important one. That will tell us a lot about the calendar, how much delay is involved in that subpoena, evasion game that the administration is playing.
 
So if you could please all stay with us. We`re going to go to commercial break now. That will give us enough time to do that subject justice when we come back from this break. And when we come back, we will get to the subpoena issue. We will be right back.
 
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
 
O`DONNELL:  President Trump seems to think the Trump administration has given more than enough testimony about Donald Trump.
 
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
 
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  I let White House Counsel McGahn testify. I let everybody testify. I think McGahn -- excuse me. I think McGahn was in there for 30 hours. Whoever heard of such a thing? But I said I want everybody to testify.
 
(END VIDEO CLIP)
 
O`DONNELL:  But now the president seems to be trying to stop everybody from testifying. Donald Trump`s refusal to cooperate with congressional investigations is forcing Democrats to examine increasingly aggressive legal options to enforce their oversight authority. House Democrats warn that Trump officials who refuse to comply with subpoenas could be held in contempt of Congress, fined up to $25,000 a day, possibly even jailed.
 
As happened in the Watergate investigation. The threat happened in the Watergate investigation when President Nixon tried to prevent his aides from testifying. Senator Sam Ervin, chairman of the Watergate Investigation Committee, threatened arrest of White House staff if they did not testify to the Watergate Committee, and then they did testify to the Watergate Committee.
 
This week, Donald Trump has stonewalled subpoenas and document demands from committees investigating Trump`s tax returns, the 2020 census, the recent firings from the Department of Homeland Security. Tonight, the White House agreed to a Republican proposal to allow Carl Kline, the former head of personnel security, to sit for a voluntary transcribed interview to answer questions about how security clearances were granted to officials like Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump.
 
But that is not what Chairman Elijah Cummings was requested. He wanted Kline to testify before the House Oversight Committee. And there`s also no sign that the Democrats will actually accept this proposal because there is a scheduling conflict that that would represent with Attorney General William Barr`s testimony on Wednesday.
 
We`re back with Congresswoman Stacey Plaskett, Congressman Lloyd Doggett, and Congressman Jared Huffman. Congressman Doggett, I want to ask you about the tax return issue, because that`s -- you`re chairman of Ways and Means, you`re on Ways and Means Committee. Chairman Richie Neal has the absolute legal authority to see any tax return he wants to see. That`s written into law very clearly. What is the status tonight of that demand by Chairman Neal?
 
DOGGETT:  Well, it`s really up to Chairman Neal now that he`s been denied not once but twice. Each of these letters is just about running out the clock as you`ve been saying. They`re trying to delay. This May 6th deadline is phony. I hope that Chairman Neal will move forward expeditiously to get these returns.
 
And whether it`s there or someone who refuses to come in front of the Oversight Committee or the Judiciary Committee, I think really the House needs to explore contracting for jail space.
 
We need to send a message that this is not going to be putting people up at the Willard Hotel that they`ll be there with the common criminals arrested if they do not comply with the inherent power of Congress to subpoena records and to subpoena people to come in. And whether it`s through arrest and jailing or through daily fines we intend to enforce these provisions and we`re not going to let them run out the clock.
 
O`DONNELL:  And so now, President Trump is saying he doesn`t want Don McGahn to respond to Chairman Nadler`s subpoena to testify to the Judiciary Committee, but Donald Trump now wants to publicly testify about Don McGahn`s testimony. Let`s listen to what the president said today about Don McGahn`s testimony.
 
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
 
TRUMP:  I never told Don McGahn to fire Mueller. If I wanted to fire Mueller, I would have done it myself. It`s very simple. I had the right to.
And frankly, whether I did or he did, we had the absolute right to fire Mueller.
 
(END VIDEO CLIP)
 
O`DONNELL:  So Congresswoman Plaskett, that`s the president of the United States accusing former White House counsel Don McGahn of lying under oath to special counsel Robert Mueller, because the Mueller report says that Don McGahn did indeed tell them that Donald Trump told him to fire Robert Mueller. And so how can Don McGahn now not testify to the Judiciary Committee now that the president is out there repeatedly, this isn`t the first time, saying that Don McGahn in effect lied to the special counsel?
 
PLASKETT:  Well, I`m sure the committees are going to be asking Attorney McGahn -- Mr. McGahn to give to justify what he said and to really try and firm up those statements. But I want everybody to remember that the president is not speaking under oath when he`s talking to the press. And when he answered questions that the special counsel gave him, he only answered the questions related to the Russia investigation and refused to answer any questions related to the obstruction of justice.
 
So we have no statements from the president under oath written under the investigation that relate to the obstruction of justice. And until he does so, his word can`t be taken as being truthful at this point.
 
O`DONNELL:  And Congressman Huffman, what`s so important about what Congresswoman Plaskett just said is that one of the questions the president obviously would have been asked is, did you call up Don McGahn twice on a weekend and twice tell him to fire the special prosecutor? In other words, he would have been asked to say what he said today under oath.
 
HUFFMAN:  Well, and the only thing we have from this president under oath are his written answers where he suddenly came down with a terrible case of amnesia every time he was asked a question. This president is not interested in going under oath and being transparent. He`s certainly not interested in being accountable to the rule of law. I think it is gut check time for the United States Congress. He is testing us. He is trying to see if we have the stomach to do our job and to enforce the law. It`s a heck of a moment.
 
O`DONNELL:  Congressman Doggett, what about the timetable on subpoena and subpoena enforcement, what does that look like?
 
DOGGETT:  Well, we need to move forward expeditiously. When the chief of staff for the president says we`ll never get the tax returns, we don`t need to hear much more. We should be ready to move forward on it. When the president says he`ll erect stonewall here and won`t permit anyone to testify, let`s get the subpoenas out. Let`s set a short timetable on them, get them over there, and ask them to tell the truth.
 
I believe some of these officials will decide to comply with the subpoenas instead of complying with a president who is a man of his last word and who lies about everything. And they shouldn`t expose themselves to jail time and criminal fines because of willingness to follow this man.
 
O`DONNELL:  Thank you all very much for joining and staying for some extra time here on our Friday night hearing. Congresswoman Stacey Plaskett, Congressman Lloyd Doggett, and Congressman Jared Huffman, thank you all very much for joining us tonight. I really appreciate it.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Source