MSNBC "The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Jim Himes and Rep. Hakeem Jeffries
Interview
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O`DONNELL: We`re joined tonight by two Democratic members of the House of Representatives who are on the committees that could issue subpoenas for the Mueller report.
Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut is a member of the Intelligence Committee, which will interview Michael Cohen behind closed doors next Thursday, after Michael Cohen has publicly testified to the Oversight Committee on Wednesday.
We`re also joined by Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York, a member of the House Judiciary Committee, which has jurisdiction over the impeachment process in the House of Representatives.
And, Congressman Jeffries, will your committee subpoena the Mueller report if it is not delivered by the attorney general?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY), HOUSE DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS CHAIRMAN: It`s my expectation that, you know, the House of Representatives as the custodians of our democracy right now, the American people voted for meaningful checks and balances on an out-of-control executive branch, voted for transparency, voted for disclosure, and if the Department of Justice refuses to publicly release the findings themselves, then I believe it will be our responsibility to make sure that we subpoena that information, that we present it to the American people, and that we even call Bob Mueller or others to testify to explain their conclusions.
O`DONNELL: And others in addition to Mueller, for example, could include other members of his prosecutorial team, possibly.
JEFFRIES: That`s absolutely correct. Under Chairman Jerry Nadler`s discretion there`s a wide range of possibilities but we`re committed to making sure that the report sees the light of day. Brandeis said sunlight is the best disinfectant. We agree.
O`DONNELL: Can you think of any reason why Robert Mueller could reasonably decline to testify to your committee if his work is completed?
JEFFRIES: Well, I think he could potentially conclude if the report is publicly available that it speaks for itself. And certainly he has taken the position that he`s declined to be public in his communication with the American people. He`s let his work speak for itself to date. He may let the report speak for itself. But it will be critical that the report is seen by the American people.
O`DONNELL: And, Congressman Himes, it`s entirely possible the report won`t speak for itself because as the rules suggest, it can be a really minimal report simply saying here are the prosecutions we brought and here`s why, here are the prosecutions we declined to bring, the so-called declinations in that rule, and here`s why. And those -- that could be basically written in shorthand.
REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Yes, that`s right. Lawrence, there`s two reasons why these types of reports are generally kept private. One is -- and in this case this would be true. You don`t want to disclose sources and methods, anything that would damage our national security.
The second one of course, and this is typical in the prosecutorial realm, if there`s somebody whose reputation would be damaged but who`s not being charged with a crime, you want to protect that reputation.
Now, the point here of course is that we have an overwhelming public interest and we can deal with those two issues but we have an absolutely overwhelming public interest in further understanding the two elements of this investigation, understanding exactly what Russia did. We have a public interest because we need to be prepared for them to do it again. And, of course, we have a public interest in finally having resolution to the question that has divided this country politically and torn it apart.
And, of course, you know, ended up with mud on the Department of Justice and attacks on the character of the special counsel. And that is the question of whether there was any collusion by the president or the president`s people. The answer may be no, in which case the president should have a real interest in getting it out there.
The answer may be yes, in which case the American public has a very real interest in knowing whether that is true.
O`DONNELL: Would you expect your committee to also subpoena the Mueller report? Could there be multiple subpoenas from multiple House committees?
HIMES: I think there could be. That might be redundant. You know, the Congress does have the power to subpoena documents from the executive.
It will be sort of interesting because on my committee of course, the former chairman, Devin Nunes, pushed the boundary of what Congress would ordinarily demand of the Justice Department. Devin Nunes established a whole new frontier in terms of demanding actual investigative material around the Clinton investigation in a way that made the Department of Justice and the FBI very, very nervous.
It`s going to be pretty hard for Republicans to all of a sudden say oh, you`ve got no right to go to the Department of Justice to ask for investigative materials, particularly given the overwhelming public interest in finally getting some closure on what actually happened here.
O`DONNELL: Andrew McCabe, as he details in his new book, worked with Robert Mueller, knows Robert Mueller very well in Robert Mueller`s previous job as director of the FBI. And this is what Andrew McCabe said today, what he told Ari Melber about what he expects in the Mueller report.
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ANDREW MCCABE, FORMER FBI ACTING DIRECTOR: I expect that Director Mueller`s team will produce an all-encompassing report that details exactly what they found and exactly what they think about it. I think it`s unbelievably important that that information is shared with Congress. And I`d also like to see it shared to the greatest extent possible with the American people.
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O`DONNELL: And, Congressman Jeffries, that`s someone who has worked closely with Robert Mueller, knows his work methodology.
JEFFRIES: Well, it`s incredibly important because we know a few things. All of the president`s men are going down in flames, from Manafort to Gates to Papadopoulos to Cohen to Flynn and now, Roger Stone.
It`s often said where there`s smoke there`s fire. There`s a whole lot of smoke emanating from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. We need some clarity. The Mueller report can provide that.
There appears to be a triangular relationship between the Trump campaign, WikiLeaks, and Russian spies. Roger Stone may be the link between the three. Hopefully the Mueller report will clear all of that up for the American people.
O`DONNELL: The other view of what the Mueller report could be is written by Neal Katyal in "The New York Times," and he says the report is unlikely to be a dictionary-thick tome, which will disappoint some observers, but such brevity is not necessarily good news for the president. In fact, quite the opposite.
A concise Mueller report might act as a road map to investigation for the Democratic House of Representatives and it might also lead to further criminal investigation by other prosecutors. A short Mueller report would mark the end of the beginning, not the beginning of the end.
And so, Congressman Himes, there we see the two possible versions of the Mueller report, the extensive one, all-encompassing as Andrew McCabe says he expects, and Neal Katyal recognizing the possibility it could be something much shorter.
HIMES: Yes. And that`s right. And I mean, who knows? We could get into an awful lot of speculation about how big, how small, what it will contain.
One thing is for sure, and I say this because one of the real tragedies of this whole experience has been the president of the United States and the president`s people damaging the reputation of Robert Mueller, a man who was wounded in Vietnam, combat veteran, a lifetime of service to this country, besmirched and attacked and smeared by the Trump administration, by the president himself.
One thing is for sure. Bob Mueller`s interests will be the interest of the American people and doing the right thing. So my guess is bob Mueller will have figured out a way to either establish the facts or, as Mr. Katyal said, if those facts point in questionable directions that are beyond the jurisdiction of his investigation he will point to them in such a way that other prosecutors or the Congress of the United States could pursue them.
O`DONNELL: Now, we`ve had a "New York Times" report indicating that President Trump called up Matthew Whitaker, the acting attorney general, to try to get him to take action involving the prosecution of Michael Cohen in the Southern District of New York.
Let`s listen to what Matthew Whitaker said to your committee when he testified about this.
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O`DONNELL: It looked like he was trying to calculate that date on that last answer because a more general version of that question, according to "The New York Times," he did indeed contact him about that case.
JEFFRIES: Yes. And Whitaker was an extraordinary witness because he was both arrogant and incompetent at the same time. So it was quite something to witness and experience.
But we are going through that transcript with a fine-toothed comb and we`ll process additional information that is coming to us to determine whether he stood in front of the Congress and the country and lied. There`s every reason in the world to believe, knowing this president, that he was likely to have pushed the envelope with Whitaker, and that`s probably the reason that he placed him there in that position in the first place.
O`DONNELL: And, Congressman Himes, I think we know what you`re going to be doing on Wednesday of next week. I assume you`re going to be watching as much of Michael Cohen`s public testimony as possible before you get him as a witness behind closed doors the next day. What are you expecting from Michael Cohen next week publicly and then how will that differ from what you`ll be pursuing privately?
HIMES: Yes, that`s a good question. And I`m not sure that his testimony will be dramatically different in private than in public. Michael Cohen was not employed by, you know, the CIA, the NSA, the military. He hasn`t spent a lot of time in classified environments.
So I don`t imagine there will be material he can`t speak out in open session that he could in front of the intelligence committees.
What is really remarkable now, I think we`re up to three different committees in which he will be testifying, and I`ve got at least two questions. Number one is, you know, does he have evidence of criminal wrongdoing that for whatever reason wasn`t pursued by the special counsel? And number two, this I think is going to be primarily a political event. All we know about what Michael Cohen told the special counsel is what the special counsel has told various courts in sentencing memos and that sort of thing.
Michael Cohen is going to tell stories. And we know this president`s behavior in public is behavior that we would not tolerate in our teenage children. Can you imagine the stories that Michael Cohen has to tell about the president`s behavior in private? I have to assume the White House is very nervous not so much about the legal implications here but by the political implications of somebody who knows the president intimately in telling those stories.
O`DONNELL: Congressman Jeffries, quickly before we go, the House resolution to block the president`s emergency declaration, is that going to be voted on tomorrow or just introduced tomorrow?
JEFFRIES: It will be introduced tomorrow. It will be voted on next week. It will be supported by every single member of the House Democratic Caucus and we expect some Republicans will support it as well.
O`DONNELL: That leads into our next segment which is about a very important lawsuit that`s being brought against the border wall and the declaration of emergency.
Congressman Hakeem Jeffries and Congressman Jim Himes, thank you very much for starting us off tonight. Really appreciate it.
JEFFRIES: Thank you, Lawrence.
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