MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Chris Van Hollen

Interview

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MADDOW:  I don`t know whether Bob Mueller supported my conclusion.  Why would I even ask him?  It was like his investigation and his evidence, I know, but I threw it out there any way. 
 
It was -- you could tell that there was some frustration in the room with the attorney general avoiding these questions.  He did get asked them, though, and he did eke out, sort of seep out information with each additional follow-up question and every senator who pressed him. 
 
Joining us now is Senator Chris Van Hollen, Democratic of Maryland, who was particularly effective today in his questioning. 
 
Senator, thank you for being with us tonight.  I know this is a big day. 
 
VAN HOLLEN:  It`s great to be with you, Rachel.  Thanks. 
 
MADDOW:  So, I am giving the attorney general a hard time tonight both in terms of his affects in answering your questions, but also because I have been surprised overall over these past three weeks to feel like he is not necessarily following the special counsel regulations to the letter of the law.  He seems to be portraying a sort of constantly evolving quasi legal framework in which he describes his actions and explains what he`s doing. 
 
I feel like every time he talks about the Mueller investigation or the report or releases anything new about it, we`re learning new stuff about how it`s being handled.  Do you think that`s a fair criticism? 
 
VAN HOLLEN:  Oh, I think that`s very fair.  Look, no one designated Barr, Attorney General Barr to essentially substitute his decision and his judgment on this question of obstruction of justice for that of Mueller and his team who looked at this for many, many months.  But somehow Barr designated himself -- it`s not in the law, it`s not in the regulations.  And, of course, that`s exactly what Trump was wanting him to do, because Trump immediately went out and tweeted that he was exonerated. 
 
Well, we know he`s not exonerated.  In fact, Mueller very clearly said he did not make an ultimate decision about whether or not President Trump was criminally liable for obstruction of justice.  And so, today I was pressing Barr not on the contents of the Mueller report.  I wanted to know how he, Barr, reached that decision in 48 hours when Mueller said that there were, quote, difficult issues of fact and law about the president`s activity and intent on obstruction of justice. 
 
I wanted to know, you know, Attorney General Barr, did you agree?  Were there difficult issues?  Did you struggle with these issues?  And he refused to answer. 
 
MADDOW:  He refused to answer and refused to answer and refused to answer.  In the end, I felt like what he was implying to you was that there is some sort of explanation for his decision to declare that the president is exonerated that we will find in the report or that he will be willing to describe out loud to members of Congress once the report itself has been filed.  Again, it was an evolving explanation that he gave over the course of the day.  But was that the impression that you were left with, that ultimately he would explain? 
 
VAN HOLLEN:  Well, clearly, his explanation is not going to be in the Mueller report itself.  This is Mueller`s report.  And that`s what I kept saying.  I`m not asking you to tell us today everything that Mueller reported.  I wish you would. 
 
But I`m just asking you, Attorney General Barr, how you reached this conclusion to exonerate the president.  And he just, as you say, stonewalled.  Now, we have to go back to the memo he wrote.  I call it the audition memo when he was trying to get the president to look at him as candidate for attorney general where he wrote that a president could not be found guilty of obstruction of justice if the president was not found guilty on the underlying crime -- in this case, criminal collusion with the Russians. 
 
But as you know, most legal experts think that`s a ridiculous theory.  There are many other ways the president could obstruct justice.  And you need sometimes to know the president`s intent.  So I asked the attorney general did you -- did you have to determine the president`s intents to make your conclusion, your exoneration conclusion?  And he wouldn`t say. 
 
So -- but we`re not going get that in the Mueller report.  The only way we`re going to get that, Rachel, is by bring Attorney General Barr back before the Congress after we get the report. 
 
MADDOW:  And briefly, Senator, when we do get the report, he said hopefully some time next week now is his new estimation.  I imagine it will be full of multicolored redactions with more or less generic explanations as to what justifies those redactions.  If the report is substantially redacted and it really affects your ability as a senator to understand the implications of what Mueller found, do you feel confident that the Democrats in the Senate, that the Senate more broadly, that Congress even more broadly than that has the tools it needs to get the full unredacted report pried out of Barr`s hands despite his efforts to hold on to it? 
 
VAN HOLLEN:  I do think so, Rachel.  I mean, there`s -- we can go through legal process and ultimately subpoena it.  We can call Bob Mueller.  And as Barr suggested in his testimony before the house the other day, it`s possible Mueller could provide the report. 
 
So, look, there are lots of potential avenues here.  I tried to get some assurance today from Barr that at least as they went through the redaction process, he was going to kind of recuse himself from that process.  He did say that the Mueller team together with the Department of Justice lawyers were the ones who were sort of making these redactions, but when I asked him if he could guarantee us that he would not overrule them on any of their decisions, he did not make that commitment. 
 
So, I think automatic of us still worry that he is continuing to do the bidding of the president.  Of course, that was reinforced by the fact that in the middle of this hearing on -- when we`re going get the Mueller report, he let loose with this conspiracy theory on, you know, the spying allegation.  And then he said, look, I`m not sure there is an adequate predicate for this.  I`m not -- I`m not suggesting I have something, but, hey, here is an idea I`m going throw out that would -- while admitting that he had no evidence to provide the committee for that allegation. 
 
So, I think whatever shred of credibility Attorney Barr may have still had left about being an independent administrator of justice, he lost it today by both his responses on the Mueller report and then letting fly with the latest conspiracy theory. 
 
MADDOW:  Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland, thank you for your time tonight, sir.  And I know that hearings like this are a bear, but it was a pleasure to watch you get after him today, sir.  Thank you very much. 
 
VAN HOLLEN:  Thank you.  Good to be with you. 

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