NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Jim Himes and Gov. Asa Hutchinson

Interview

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CHUCK TODD:

Well, joining me now is Asa Hutchinson, who is now the governor of Arkansas and a former member of Congress. And from Stamford, Connecticut, is Democratic Congressman Jim Himes, who sits, currently, on the House Intelligence Committee. Welcome to both of you. Governor, let me start with you.

REP. JIM HIMES:

Good morning.

CHUCK TODD:

Simple question here. Obstruction of justice, if that is among the chief charges against President Trump, that was something that you brought to the United States Senate against then-President Bill Clinton. How serious, in your mind, is an obstruction of justice charge against a president of the United States?

GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:

Well, it's very serious, of course. And that's one of the reasons we pursued that back in President Clinton's impeachment trial. But you also have to remember, it's a very high bar. As that was presented, there was not a sufficient vote in the Senate to convict on that. And the American public, they look at any charge against the president of the United States with great scrutiny, as they should. So it's a very high bar. And in this instance, I think that's probably one of the most interesting aspects of the anticipated Mueller report, as to what form it would be in. You've got to remember that, first of all, Kenneth Starr, in his independent counsel review, four-year investigation that was preceded by Robert Fiske. This one is less than two years. And so it's being presented. Will there be specific itemization of crimes that could constitute an impeachable offense? That was the outline with Kenneth Starr. I don't anticipate that happening in this instance. But that will help guide and direct Congress as to what the report says on that.

CHUCK TODD:

Congressman Himes, what are you exp -- what are you looking for from this report? And is it, is it an automatic that we're going to see at least an inquiry into impeachment?

REP. JIM HIMES:

Well, first and foremost, what I'm looking for is, you know, a report that, that, that gets to the truth and that gets out there. And this is really important. You know, in the preface of your show, you said, "Democrats are hoping for this, and Republicans are hoping for that." And look, it's a political world. So I do think people have their hopes. But more than anything else, you know, the question of the Russian interference and the possibility of collusion by the president and his people has twisted our politics into something unrecognizable for the last two years, including behavior on the part of the president, attacking the F.B.I., attacking Bob Mueller. You know, everything about this has become political. The way to end that, of course, is for the truth to be out there. And if that truth indicates that President Trump committed no crime, impeachable or otherwise, so be it. If it indicates that he did, that's a much more complicated world. But first and foremost, given that we've been on the edge of our seats for the last two years on this issue, everyone in this country needs to know what happened. And then we decide where to take it from there.

CHUCK TODD:

Governor, you said something interesting. You said you lamented the fact that there was -- you couldn't figure out a way to make the impeachment proceedings in the late '90s more bipartisan, which of course, on one hand, you think, "Well, of course you couldn't." But I understood what you meant. Meaning -- but you couldn't even get bipartisan cooperation for the mechanics --

GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:

That's right.

CHUCK TODD:

-- of it. All right. How do you convince your fellow Republicans, today, that that was a mistake that Democrats made with you? Don't make the same mistake, if Democrats go down this road.

GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:

First of all, you have to try. And that's a big part of it -- is you have to have conversations as to, how should this be approached in a bipartisan way, how to deal with the Mueller report, both in terms of what should be disclosed, the timing of the disclosure, as well as, you know, what's the next steps? Of course, it all depends on what is there. And again, you know, this could be a, simply a report that does not outline any offenses against the president of the United States. Then you're going to wind up having investigations by different committees. It's going to wind up partisan, which is a disappointment. But I think you first have to try to say, "Let's communicate. What is the right thing to do here? What could be done in a bipartisan way?"

CHUCK TODD:

Congressman Himes, look, the House Intelligence Committee, to me, has proven pretty difficult to see bipartisan cooperation. We did see -- we've seen some on the Senate Intel side. Is there anything that has changed in the Intel Committee since the chairmanships changed?

REP. JIM HIMES:

Well, one obvious answer to that question is that the chairman is no longer Devin Nunes. And Devin Nunes, as chairman, of course, very early on, in the last Congress, sort of turned over his activities to being the defense of the president. And Devin is part focus that group. And it's not a huge group, but part of that group in the Congress that is really fully dedicated, facts be damned, to defending this president. And I sort of chuckle and Governor Hutchinson's optimism. And he's absolutely right. You know, we need to try to make this bipartisan in how we approach whatever comes out. It's more important today than ever. Because of course, today, facts are disputed. I mean, I remember the Clinton situation, in the '90s. There wasn't a lot of dispute about the facts. Now, each and every fact is disputed. And by the way, I'd point out that we're going to get, sort of, a feel for the partisan warping of our system this week. Because there will be a resolution in front of the House, saying that the president's emergency declaration, that his decision to spend money, contrary to the will of the Congress, is not constitutional. And you know, it's going to be quite a spectacle. Because a lot of the Republicans who were in the Obama administration, who called him a king and a dictator, and the pen and the phone was such a startling damaging thing to our Constitution, I suspect, are going to vote to not hold President Trump accountable for going around the Constitution on the issue of his wall.

CHUCK TODD:

Look, I've got two final questions for each of you. Congressman Himes, let me start with you. Michael Cohen's going to be testifying in front of your committee this week. What, specifically, are you looking for from him?

REP. JIM HIMES:

Well, you know, Michael Cohen is going to jail for lying to my committee. So obviously, step one is to re-ask him the questions that he felt he needed to lie to us about, when he, when he testified in the last Congress. So we're going to want to get to the truth, allow him to correct the record. And then, of course, the question is, okay, now that we know the truth, what are the follow-ups? It's going to be an interesting week in that regard. Because of course, he'll appear in my committee after he appears, publicly, in the Oversight Committee. So we'll also have an opportunity to ask follow-up questions. And remember, there's always some question here about whether Michael Cohen feared retribution for his testimony. I don't think he's going to say a lot that is classified. But he may have some things that he doesn't feel comfortable saying publicly that he then wants to say either to the Senate --

CHUCK TODD:

Okay.

REP. JIM HIMES:

-- or to the House Intelligence Committees, in closed session.

CHUCK TODD:

Governor Hutchinson, I want to actually ask you another question. Governor Larry Hogan -- you're here for the National Governors Association. Governor Larry Hogan has lamented that the RNC seems to be rigging the rules to even prevent a challenge, a challenge -- a Republican primary challenge to the sitting president. Do you think the RNC should -- look, let the chips fall where they may?

GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:

Well, this is President Trump's RNC, in the sense that he appoints the chairman. So obviously, there is something that is pro the White House and the administration. But obviously, in our system of democracy and in our party, anybody's free to make the challenge. Sometimes, it's a more difficult environment than others. In this case, with President Trump's record, with what he's accomplished, it would be very difficult for somebody to mount a successful challenge, at this point.

CHUCK TODD:

There is a debate in your party. Do you think that's a debate that should be had this cycle or not?

GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:

Well, you're always going to have a debate. But like I said, you know, there's people who criticize President Trump, because we don't like his style. You don't win campaigns on style. I mean, you might win. But in terms of challenging an incumbent --

CHUCK TODD:

Right.

GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:

-- it's about policy and what you've accomplished. And what he's done, in terms of increased border security and the court, deregulating more authority to the governors, in terms of deemphasizing North Korea as a problem and resolving that, he's had tremendous success. And so that's the record that he would present. In the primary, it'd be difficult for anybody to challenge that.

CHUCK TODD:

All right. Governor Asa Hutchinson, Republican from Arkansas, thanks for coming by.

GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:

Thank you.

CHUCK TODD:

And sharing your views. Congressman Jim Himes, Democrat from Connecticut, we'll be watching you this week for those Cohen hearings. And thanks for coming on, as well. Much appreciated.

REP. JIM HIMES:

Thank you.

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