MSNBC "Hardball" - Transcript

Interview

MSNBC "Hardball" - Transcript

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MATTHEWS: Thank you, David Shuster. I am joined now by Democratic Senator Richard Durbin of Illinois, who is the number two Senate Democrat a member of the Judiciary Committee and Republican Senator George Allen of Virginia.

Let me go to Senator Allen first. Were you concerned by these late-breaking reports that Harriet Miers had a strong pro-abortion rights position?

SEN. GEORGE ALLEN, (R) VIRGINIA: I was going to actually talk and interview Harriet Miers this morning. And I read through these two speeches she gave in 1993. I had dog-earred a lot of pages. I was going to ask her to explain some of the comments and assertions she made.

She was criticizing the lack of legislative activity and therefore saying that is why courts get involved. And I am one who believes that the people's views and values are represented by those who they elect in the legislative branch and not unelected federal judges appointed for life.

And so some of the comments she made in the speeches did give me plenty of questions to ask of Harriet Miers. Because ultimately what I care about, are judges-a judge, potential judge's philosophy. I don't want any judge that's going on the Supreme Court who think they ought to inventing the law or amending the Bill of Rights by judicial decree.

MATTHEWS: Senator Durbin, was this a bad appointment in the first place?

SEN. DICK DURBIN, (D) ILLINOIS: Well, it was a troublesome appointment, because without a background as a judge or even without writings to indicate what she believed we had very little to go on. Most people did not know her, exception casually through contacts in the White House. When I met with her personally in my office, it was a cordial meeting, but I didn't learn much during the course of that meeting. It really increased her burden as the process unfolded to tell us who she was and what she believed in.

I'll also tell you, the president's defense, suggesting that her religion was the reason to vote for her I think was not unprecedented, never happened before in history, but it created an especially difficult burden for her to talk about religion in her role in the court when she appeared before the committee.

So, I'd have to say this nomination was ill-fated from the start. And the Republican right was very vocal in opposing her.

MATTHEWS: Senator Allen, when you met with Harriet Miers, did she strike you with someone with a lifelong curiosity about constitutional law?

ALLEN: Well, she withdraw before we met. So, no, I was unable to discern that sort of philosophy. I was hoping to determine what her philosophy is.

And going forward what we need to urge, what I am urging the president to do, is appoint a man or a woman with a clear, consistent, demonstrable judicial philosophy. We don't want judges who are going to be legislating from the bench. I don't care to be complicit, and you know this, I've said this on your show, with putting another Souter or Kennedy on the Supreme Court. And there are some outstanding nominees, men and women, who the president can go forward with, who I think will have-at least those of us who think judges ought to have that proper philosophy for this very crucial seat, I think would get strong Republican support, and hopefully a few Democrats as well.

MATTHEWS: Well, in order to have the paper trail of proof that they've had an established judicial philosophy, don't they have to have been judges?

ALLEN: It helps, because that is a record of performance. However, there may be others that are professors, they may have been prosecutors may have worked in the Justice Department. There are a variety of ways that you can do it. But judicial experience is valuable. But it is not dispositive.

DURBIN: Let me say one thing if I might. The criticism of the right about Harriet Miers was not that she would be a judicial activist, it was the fact she did not have a demonstrable record of really following their narrow political agenda. And that's what's I think the president is going to be faced with. Will he show the leadership to appoint a nominee who will unify this nation? Or will he set out to unify his Republican party. I hope he wants to unify the nation?

ALLEN: Dick, I remember one time you were calling us a bunch of cocker spaniels or lap dogs because we were supporting the president's nominees, obviously there was division.

DURBIN: You are entitled to your opinion. And I hope you express it.

ALLEN: I do. And we had in this case senator leaders like Senators Frist and McCain and Warner and others held back.

MATTHEWS: Senator Allen you know about the internal workings of the White House than Senator Durbin, because it's your party that's in there, was-did she make this call, or was-or did Bush throw mama from the train?

ALLEN: I don't know.

MATTHEWS: You don't know. You really don't know after all this days past.

ALLEN: I sincerely don't know. I appreciate the fact that she has withdrawn. I wish her well in her service to our country through the White House. Most importantly, we need to look forward to filling this very critical vacancy on the Supreme Court.

MATTHEWS: Senator Durbin, do you know whether she was pushed or she jumped?

DURBIN: I have no idea. I can just tell you, that there was vocal criticism against Harriet Miers came from the Republican side, from one wing of the Republican party that was very upset with her from the start. Now, I admire what Senator Allen said that we have more Republicans now who want to be more independent. I think that is good. I think we need moderation and independence in both political parties.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you Senator Allen, is the problem weight or ideology here?

ALLEN: What was the first word?

MATTHEWS: Weight, weightiness, gravitas.

ALLEN: I think that the, for those of us who care about judicial philosophy and trying to discern what she would be like in any judicial nominee when they put on the robe for a lifetime appointment, you want to make sure that they are going to stick to those principles.

And, if someone doesn't have a record that demonstrates in a consistent and clear and convincing manner that that is their viewpoint, it makes it very difficult to have that comfort.

In her case, you had, for example, that 1989 questionnaire for the Dallas city council on abortion issues. And then, a few years later, you have the speech to the women executives of Dallas and it seems to be an inconsistent statement on it.

Not that any of them are just positive, but it makes you wonder-OK, what does she think the proper role of a court is? Should they be remedying issues that are best remedied by people elected by the owners of the company.

MATTHEWS: Have you-I've only got a minute. I just got the warning. Senator, have you moved to the left since becoming a U.S. Senator from Virginia?

ALLEN: Moved to the left? No, I've stayed as a common-sense Jeffersonian conservative.

By the way, I followed Ronald Reagan's advice. I trusted President Bush, but I wanted to verify.

MATTHEWS: The reason I ask that, Senator-I'm sorry to keep interrupting, we only have a minute here.

It's because it seems like conservatives, especially people out in the country, in the South, for example, believe that anytime someone goes north or ends up in Washington, they get-somehow they go native and they become liberals.

Do you appeal that happening to you, like invasion of the body snatchers? Do you feel yourself, just by working in Washington, being pulled to the left? Do you feel that urge?

ALLEN: No, not at all.

MATTHEWS: Well, why are you suspicious that a woman would have her head turned and go left when she in the Supreme Court?

ALLEN: I worry about anybody, whether it's a man or a woman-I worry about that.

MATTHEWS: What's it about the Supreme Court? What's in the water that turns these conservatives into liberals?

ALLEN: I don't know what it is in Washington, but it does happen. It's pointed out whether it is Souter, whether it's Kennedy, whether-there are others. I, as governor would appoint people as judges-this was for terms.

This goes back to Hamilton beating Jefferson on the idea of judges being appointed for life rather than terms. I have recommended to the president, J. Harvie Wilkison, Michael Luttig and Karen Williams from the Fourth Circuit, as well as I think, Janice Rogers Brown or Priscilla Owen would be fine as well.

MATTHEWS: On a far lighter moment, but not unimportant to your state

I congratulate you, Senator Durbin, on the four straight by the White Sox.

DURBIN: I'll tell you what, the south side of Chicago is the gladdest part of town. Those folks have been waiting 88 years for a champion , and they got it last night with the sweep of a good team, and there will be a lot of celebration in Chicago in the weeks ahead.

MATTHEWS: Well, they beat the Cubbies anyway. Thank you very much, Senator Richard Durbin of Chicago tonight and Senator George Allen of Virginia.

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