MSNBC "All in with Chris Hayes" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Jamie Raskin

Interview

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HAYES:  Joining me now Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland, Member of the House Judiciary Committee and a House Democratic caucus leadership representative.  And Congressman, it`s been quite a day.  Obviously, I saw a lot of members of Congress somewhat aghast by the facts laid out in the BuzzFeed article last night.  There is now this statement from the Special Counsel`s office which I should read again, we could put it up on the screen for a moment.  The Special Counsel`s office saying right before we went on air at around 7:45 this evening disputing certain parts of the accuracy of the BuzzFeed story.  Your response.
 
HAYES:  Do we have Jamie Raskin?
 
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D), MARYLAND:  Yes I`m there.  I think I got some feedback from someone else on your stuff.  Yes, but I`m sorry, what was your final question, Chris?
 
HAYES:  So just obviously there`s been sort of an arc over the last 24 hours with regards to this story because it is obviously such a kind of pungent allegation particularly as it regards Congress, particularly as regards impeachability.  How are you taking all this in as someone who sits on the House Judiciary Committee?
 
RASKIN:  Well, look, it was I think shocking and stunning revelation for everybody precisely because of its historical resonance.  I mean, these were precisely the kinds of charges that led the Nixon impeachment articles which in turn brought him to his resignation and they were also the basis for the House of Representatives ill-fated impeachment of Bill Clinton for lying about a sexual affair.  But lying the Congress and obstruction of justice are cardinal constitutional sins.
 
On the other hand, it fits in very nicely with what everyone understands about Donald Trump and his White House where lying is standard operating procedure.  I think the Washington Post is tallied up more than 4,000 lies that he`s told so far.  So it doesn`t take a lot of effort to imagine that he would have cooperated with his private lawyer who did a lot of his dirty work to lie to Congress and to urged him to do that.
 
So you know, I was listening to some of the other guests and I know everybody is very eager for justice to be done here because the government has been shut down and it looks like we`re living through full-blown assault on the American constitutional order.  And all I can tell you is that the Democratic majority that is taken over in the House of Representatives is ready to lead and we are extremely eager to get going on our constitutional oversight responsibilities.
 
We have a constitutional duty to ferret out corruption and lawlessness in the executive branch of government and we`re going to be doing investigations into the abuse of power, into the obstruction of justice, into Emoluments Clause violations, and all of the sins that the House Judiciary Committee should have been looking at over the last two years but all of those opportunities were wasted by the GOP majority in their wild goose chase to ferret out a completely mythological and fantastic deep state conspiracy to make fun of Donald Trump or what have you.
 
So those days are behind us and we`re about to get to work.
 
HAYES:  Those -- all the things you just said are not the beginning of a formal impeachment inquiry which is the kind of thing that both Bob Bauer and the Atlantic and you heard Neal Katyal and General Michael Hayden have called. 
 
RASKIN:  Yes.
 
HAYES:  What`s the difference in your mind between those things and that and what`s the significance of not doing that?
 
RASKIN:  Well, you know, during our first two years in office, everybody accused us of being trigger-happy on impeachment, now everybody`s accusing us of being fraidy-cats about impeachment.  Look --
 
HAYES:  Well, that`s what comes with the gavel and the power, Congressmen.
 
RASKIN:  Well, you`re exactly right.  And we`re feeling it.  But look, we`ve got to keep Congress together, we got to keep our majority together,  and we have to keep the country together.  And people understand we`re dealing with a very unusual situation, with the corruption and the criminality in the White House are pervasive.  So we`re going to be moving very quickly to try to get to the bottom of it and impeachment is no fetish with us but it is no taboo either.  We understand that impeachment is very much part of the Constitution.
 
Both parties have used it at different points in our history and it has played an important role in our constitutional toolbox.  So it is a tool that is there.  It is the principle final mechanism for a constitutional self-defense of the Congress and the people against a president who insists upon acting like a king.  And we don`t have Kings here.  And so when presidents decide that they can set themselves at war against the Constitution and the rule of law, then impeachment may be the end of the road indeed.
 
HAYES:  Let me let me establish something here because you mentioned the Nixon articles of impeachment Article 1, the Obstruction of Justice Article Paragraph 3, approving, condoning, acquiescing in, which is an interesting word, and counseling witnesses with respect to the giving of false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employees of the United States and false or misleading testimony in duly instituted judicial and congressional proceedings.
 
So, the question is this, and I think you`ve commented on this, but I just want to get you on the record here, which is if it were the case that a president, any president, were to order a subordinate to lie to congress, is that be an impeachable offense?
 
RASKIN:  Of course it`s an impeachable offense.  Why?  Because, one, under our system of law nobody is above the law; and number two, every citizen, including members of congress and the president, owe the sovereign, truthful testimony.
 
So, the whole reason we have the rule of law is to try to control people with power, that was the design of our constitution.  You know, people who don`t have power are generally very subject to criminal control, but the magic of the rule of law is we say to people who have power you are going to be subject to constitutional requirement such as you have to tell the truth when you testify, no, you can`t organize conspiracies to lie to congress or lie to the courts.
 
HAYES:  All right, Congressman Jamie Raskin on the House Judiciary committee, thank you very much.

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