MSNBC "All in with Chris Hayes" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse

Interview

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HAYES: Joining me now Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode  Island who`s a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. First, I want to  get your reaction, Senator, to something that James Comey responded to  which is the President United States referring to Michael Cohen as a rat.  As a former U.S.
Attorney yourself, a member of the Senate Judiciary  Committee, what do you -- what do you think about that?

SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D), RHODE ISLAND: Well, I think it seems a lot  like a signal to other potential co-operators that he will turn on them and  that there will be a price. So to the extent that he`s been engaged in  obstruction of justice in plain view for months and months and months now,  this is just yet another episode of obstruction in plain view.

HAYES: There`s also some news tonight about Michael Flynn. There -- I  don`t know the degree you followed this but there has been a kind of  conservative theory spun out that Michael Flynn was the unwitting victim of  some kind of entrapment by the FBI officers that questioned him. And  there`s actually tonight the actual notes from those FBI investigators have  been released and it`s somewhat remarkable they show Flynn being given time  and time again opportunity to come clean and tell the truth about the  nature of his conversation with -- conversations with Sergei Kislyak, the  interviewing agents, asked Flynn if he recalled any conversation with  Kislyak which the expulsion that meaning the expulsion of Russian diplomats  were discussed where Flynn might have encouraged Kislyak not escalate the  situation to keep the Russian response reciprocal or not to engage in a tip  for tat. Flynn responded not really. I don`t remember. What do you think  of that?

WHITEHOUSE: Well, I think the opposite of the Republican narrative is  likely the truth. I think that when FBI agents go up and actually enter  the White House to do a formal interview of the National Security Director,  they`ve got to be pretty anxious going in that they really have to stay  well within bounds. They don`t want to be tangling with the White House or  the national security director. They want to be well within you know,  proper procedures and give the guy every chance he can to clean up his  story and give them an out not to have to come back and report to as they  turned out to have to do, Sally Yates, oh my God, we just got lied to on a  national security matter by the National Security Director involving the  Russians. And that set this all off.

But you`re right, the 302 form that they filled out seems very consistent  with kind of caution you`d expect from FBI agents as they go into the White  House to take an interview of a prominent national figure.

HAYES: You know, since Michael Cohen has pleaded guilty to lying to  Congress which you are a member of in the United States Senate and we have  this sort of additional information from the sentencing about what the U.S.  Southern District looks at in terms of the violation of campaign finance  law. Many people feel like we`re on a different terrain now than we were  before that. And I wonder if it feels that way in Capitol Hill if you feel  like in the last week or so things are on different terrain legally for the  president.

WHITEHOUSE: Yes. I think two things are happening. One I think the  investigations in courts and in grand juries are piling up enough that they`re starting to kind of surround the President and put him in a position where it becomes increasingly complicated to try to deceive your way around thing. I mean, the tangled web starts to actually tangle and start to snare him and the people around him. It`s too many investigations to keep your story`s straight.

On the other side, outside of the judicial branch and these executive  investigations in grand juries and in courts and so forth, you have  Congress. The House was engaged for a long time and what very much  appeared to be a coordinated effort to obstruct the FBI investigation. And  we don`t know anywhere near enough about the House members and their staff  and what connections and coordination and collusion they had with the  President and his lawyers and the White House Council in coordinating the  response to this.

We don`t know anything about it but we do know that the House was just  hopeless in terms of looking into this in any kind of a sincere way. They  were just blocking for the President. Now the White House is in Democratic  hands and in addition to the 17 investigations that you showed, there are  going to be subpoenas starting to land, there are going to be witnesses  starting to be interviewed these dubious assertions of privilege are going  to be explored and I think exploded and a whole new amount of public  information is going to come pouring out through the legislative branch.

HAYES: There`s a story today about Nancy Pelosi sort of successfully  reining her caucus in persuading members of the Democratic caucus to not  jump ahead on things like impeachment, to wait until the Mueller report  comes out and not to get ahead of things. I do wonder sometimes and I hear  this from Democrats that I interview all the time, they`re very cautious  about it politically. But I also wonder like what lens are you looking at  this fact through, the politics or the constitutional duty of the oath of  office of President to take care of the laws are faithfully executed and  you`re a constitutional duty to constrain a possible criminal presidency?

WHITEHOUSE: I think what you want to do in these circumstances is proceed  firmly but cautiously enough that you`re not out way with your mouth ahead  of the evidence because you don`t want to be caught with your mouth way out  ahead of your evidence. You want to take your time, you want to be patient  and smart and thorough about building your case and you probably want to  hold a few things back if you possibly can so that when you deliver they  really come as punches and not just a lot of speculation.

So I think that people like Jerry Nadler and Adam Schiff are very, very  good lawyers and they understand this very well and I don`t think they`re  going to be investigating with their mouth. I think they`re going to be  using their tools very cautiously very prudently and very firmly to make  sure that they actually get the real facts out. But some of its going to  be like shooting ducks in a barrel. I mean these bogus assertions of  executive privilege, good luck defending that.

HAYES: All right, Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, great thanks for taking some  time tonight.

WHITEHOUSE: Good to be with you.

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