MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Adam Schiff

Interview

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MADDOW:  Tonight, the Acting Attorney General Matt Whitaker has been sent this letter from the House Judiciary Committee chairman, Congressman Jerry Nadler of New York.  The letter advises Matt Whitaker that at his testimony last week in Congress, quote: Members on both sides of the aisle found many of your answers to be unsatisfactory, incomplete or contradicted by other evidence. 
 
Contradicted by other evidence is a bad one.  I mean, the Judiciary Committee chairman is inviting Matt Whitaker to clarify his testimony, but the implication of his letter, this contradicted by other evidence thing, the implication here is that Matt Whitaker may have made false statements to the committee while he was testifying under oath. 
 
To be specific, Nadler says that the committee, quote, has identified several individuals with direct knowledge of the phone calls you denied receiving from the White House about the Justice Department`s prosecution of long-time Trump attorney Michael Cohen.  Mr. Whitaker said under oath in his testimony that he did not have communications with the White House about the Cohen prosecution.  Jerry Nadler has advised him tonight that they have identified several individuals who have direct knowledge of Whitaker in fact having phone calls with the White House about that prosecution.  If Whitaker gave false testimony under oath, that`s going to be a big deal. 
 
As far as we know, there has been no response yet from the Justice Department in general, or Matthew Whitaker in particular, but it will be interesting to see how that response goes.  It will be particularly interesting just to see if Mr. Whitaker tries to invade, tries to evade congressional oversight on this by virtue of the fact he is about to be no longer a Justice Department employee, because as if there weren`t enough going on today, tomorrow the Senate is expected to vote on a new attorney general to replace Matt Whitaker.  William Barr is on track to win confirmation from the Republican-controlled Senate as the new head of the Department of Justice. 
 
In his confirmation hearing last month, of course, Mr. Barr was notably indirect and noncommittal on what he will do with any findings from special counsel Robert Mueller in his investigation.  Barr said he could not say whether he would make any of those findings public or even let Congress see them. 
 
Across the Capitol in the U.S. House, however, the Democratic majority there has suggested there may be some remedies for Congress and maybe even the public getting access to what Robert Mueller finds in his investigation.  The House Intelligence Chair Adam Schiff says yes, he pretty much is willing to subpoena any Mueller report if there is one and if need be.  I also have questions as to whether the chairman believes it would be possible to get testimony from Robert Mueller about any of his findings in his investigation, separate and apart from any report that Mueller may provide to William Barr or whoever is the next A.G. 
 
Joining us now is Congressman Adam Schiff.  He is the chair of the House Intelligence Committee. 
 
Mr. Chairman, it`s good to have you with us. 
 
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Thank you.  It`s great to be with you. 
 
MADDOW:  There is a lot going on.  I have a ton of things I want to ask you about tonight.  But I`d actually like to ask you first about this sort of breaking news that we`re following tonight, this ruling from the judge in the Paul Manafort case, ruling that Mr. Manafort intentionally lied to prosecutors after he had agreed to cooperate with them.  As both the chair of the Intelligence Committee and as a former prosecutor yourself, I just wanted to ask you your sense of how important this ruling is. 
 
SCHIFF:  Well, it`s going to be devastating to Manafort.  He is going to get none of the benefit of the plea agreement, and I think he is likely to have the judge throw the book at him.  I mean, look, this is someone who after he`s arrested, while he is being tried is found to be witness tampering, and then he agrees to cooperate and he`s found to be lying. 
 
I mean, it`s hard to have a record more appalling than that to the judge.  What I also think is significant is it appears the judge has largely agreed with what the special counsel argued, and that is not only did he lie, but the motivation here is if he told the truth about his relationship with someone affiliated with Russian intelligence while he was the campaign chairman, that would be so damaging effectively to Trump that it would negate his chance of a pardon. 
 
That to me is quite telling.  It`s not just that if he told the truth, it would be damaging to Manafort or Kilimnik, but it would reflect so adversely on the president that he would lose his chance of a pardon, and there is obviously more to that when we find out about those meetings with Kilimnik. 
 
MADDOW:  Are you worried -- I mean, one of the things the prosecutor suggested here is something that -- one thing that might explain some of Mr. Manafort`s behavior, including when it comes to his interaction was prosecutors is that he might have been angling for a pardon from Mr. Trump.  Now that Mr. Manafort`s case appears to have come to this crashing end, as you say, it looks like the judge has no reason to not absolutely throw the book at him. 
 
Are you expecting or concerned?  Do you have any thoughts on the prospect that this is the moment at which the president might feel most inclined to talk about a pardon when it comes to Manafort? 
 
SCHIFF:  It certainly is a concern, because if there was ever a president to abuse the pardon power, it`s likely to be this one.  I think Manafort was trying to play it both ways.  He wanted to angle for a pardon with the president.  At the same time, he knew he could get stiffed by the president because the president, after all, doesn`t care about Manafort or anyone else.  He cares about Donald Trump. 
 
And so, he wanted at the same time to try to minimize his sentence and reduce his exposure there.  And still hold out the prospect of a pardon.  But I think he clearly felt that he couldn`t maintain any possibility of a pardon if he was honest about what kind of a relationship the campaign had through him with this Russian intelligence-linked individual. 
 
MADDOW:  Mr. Chairman, if you don`t mind, I`d like to ask you to stay while we have a quick break there are a couple of other matters that arose in today`s news and that are going to be important tomorrow.  I`d like to ask that you stick with us. 
 
SCHIFF:  Absolutely. 
 
MADDOW:  All right.  Chairman of the Intelligence Committee, Congressman Adam Schiff, joins us again when we come back. 
 
Stay with us.
 
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MADDOW:  We`re back now with the chairman of the Intelligence Committee in the House, Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff. 
 
Mr. Chairman, thank you again for staying with us. 
 
SCHIFF:  You bet. 
 
MADDOW:  Tomorrow, William Barr, by most accounts, by all accounts is expected to be confirmed as the next attorney general of the United States.  As you know, during the course of his confirmation proceedings, he would not confirm to the Senate, he would not pledge to the Senate that he would allow any findings from Robert Mueller`s investigation to be released to Congress, let alone to the public. 
 
I wonder in your role as the chairman of the intelligence committee if you feel like that`s the final word on that, or if you feel like you with your own powers as chairman and the powers of your committee, if you would have some way to access those findings, even if Mr. Barr decided that you shouldn`t see them. 
 
SCHIFF:  It`s certainly not the last word, and we will use every form of compulsion we can to make sure that we get the report, that we make the report public, and we may need well more than the report.  You know, one of the facts that I think it`s very important for people to know is the special counsel`s office is in possession of evidence that it may be impossible to get except for from the special counsel. 
 
And to give you an illustration, there were searches done of Roger Stone.  There were searches done of Paul Manafort.  There were searches done of Michael Cohen.  That evidence, some of it reportedly, for example, in the form of hard drives from Roger Stone, there may be no other way for the Congress to get except through the Justice Department, which means that if Bill Barr as attorney general decides you`re not going get to see that evidence, we`re not going to include that evidence in any report to Congress, the American people may never know exactly what happened. 
 
That is unsustainable.  The American people are going to demand it.  We`re going demand it.  We`re going use every compulsion we can to get it. 
 
It`s too big to be swept under the rug.  And I want to make this point, too, Rachel, and that is it`s not just whether we get a report.  It`s also what kind of a report we get.  The attorney general could have a role in telling the special counsel what kind of a report, whether it`s skeletal, whether it`s extensive to file, believing that the report will be made public. 
 
So maybe we will shape the report before it`s produced.  So, there are all kinds of ways to play mischief here, but we`re determined to get to the truth. 
 
MADDOW:  There was a letter sent by your colleague, Chairman Jerry Nadler of the Judiciary Committee to the acting attorney general, to Matt Whitaker tonight, suggesting that he -- well, telling him that he needs to clarify his testimony before Congress last week, and suggesting that Mr. Whitaker may have lied under oath, may have not spoken truthfully under oath last week when he denied that he had communications with the White House about the Michael Cohen prosecution.  There are a few other matters that Mr.
Nadler raised in this letter to Whitaker. 
 
And that`s interesting about Matt Whitaker.  Matt Whitaker we believe is on the way out, but it also raises this prospect that the White House has been through its contacts at the Justice Department, through its appointees at the Justice Department, that they have been trying to get information or trying to put pressure on what the Justice Department is doing. 
 
Do you know that they have done that one way or the other?  And do you think it has had an effect on what the Justice Department or even the special counsel has been able to pursue? 
 
SCHIFF:  I don`t know the answer.  You know, he will say this, though.  This is someone who has refused to follow the advice of ethics lawyers.  So, you know, you start out with a great skepticism about whether you`re getting the full story from someone like that.  This is someone who obviously auditioned for the part by showing his hostility to the investigation. 
 
And I think that the Judiciary Committee needs to demand answer, and if there is credible reason to believe he has not been truthful, they need to do everything necessary to hold him accountable.  And the fact that he`s leaving the Justice Department doesn`t make him any less accessible to the Congress.  Indeed, in many respects, it makes him more accessible.  It`s less of an issue of pulling him out of his responsibilities as acting attorney general. 
 
So, you know, we need to get answers, particularly if there is any question about his truthfulness, what he has shared with the White House about any investigation. 
 
MADDOW:  Chairman Adam Schiff of the House Intelligence Committee -- sir, I really appreciate your time tonight.  Thank you very much for being with us. 
 
SCHIFF:  Thank you. 

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