MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Jim Himes

Interview

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REID:  We are continuing to digest this new reporting tonight from "The New York Times." I will just read you top of the story once again. 
 
Quote: In the days after President Trump fired James B. Comey as FBI director, law enforcement officials became so concerned by the president`s behavior that they began investigating whether he had been working on behalf of Russia against American interests, according to law enforcement officials and others familiar with the investigation."
 
So, that is a counterintelligence investigation opened by the FBI into whether the president himself was basically a Russian asset.  According to "The Times," the question of whether the president of the United States obstructed justice by firing the FBI Director James Comey was itself seen as a national security concern not just as a criminal matter. 
 
Quote: If the president had fired Mr. Comey to stop the Russia investigation, the action would have been a national security issue because it naturally would have hurt the bureau`s effort to learn how Moscow interfered in the 2016 election and whether any Americans were involved, according to James A. Baker, who served as FBI general counsel until late 2017.
 
Quote: He privately testified in October before House investigators who were examining the FBI`s handling of the full Russia inquiry.  That testimony has not been publicly released but in a portion of it that was read to "The Times". James Baker said, not only would it be an issue of obstructing an investigation, but the obstruction itself would hurt our ability to figure out what the Russians had done, and that is what would be the threat to national security.
 
Joining us now is Congressman Jim Himes, a member of the House Intelligence Committee. 
 
Congressman Himes, so great to have you here tonight. 
 
REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT), HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE:  Good evening, Joy. 
 
REID:  Your reaction, first, to this reporting. 
 
HIMES:  Well, it`s extraordinary.  I mean, this is one of those historical moments where, you know, we`ve been so accustomed to, you know, 20 weeks of headlines in one day that, you know, we now learned that apparently the FBI opened a counterintelligence investigation into the president of the United States. 
 
On the other hand, you know, I`m not hugely surprised.  I remember that day and I remember just, you know, this icy feeling of, oh, my god, this is somehow some really awful stuff starts.  But, remember, the reason I`m not entirely surprised is that what we have come to learn over the period of a year, a year and a half, the FBI would have known about a lot of that stuff. 
 
What do I mean?  I mean the don Jr.  Meeting at Trump Tower where Don Jr.
is like, hey, give me dirt on Clinton to Russians.  The fact that Paul Manafort, that Michael Cohen, that Papadopoulos, that Michael Flynn all lied, all lied about their contacts with Russia.  That according to press reports Jared Kushner asked the Russian ambassador if they could set up private communication lines in the Russian embassy. 
 
Some of that stuff, maybe all of that stuff, the FBI knew when the president of the United States fired Jim Comey to take pressure -- the pressure of the Russia investigation off of him.  And, oh, by the way, there may be stuff that they knew and still know that we know nothing about.  So when you add that all together as massively consequential as this fact is, it`s not terribly surprising. 
 
REID:  Yes.  A lot of this testimony -- a lot of this story hinges on the private testimony of James Baker, who was the FBI general counsel that he gave to House Oversight and House Judiciary.  Have you, sir, seen that testimony or is that testimony you expect your committee to get hold of? 
 
HIMES:  Well, I have not as a member of the Intelligence Committee seen that testimony.  It was -- it was other committees in the Congress.  You know, I think we`re still at a point, Joy, where the answer here -- and the answer becomes all the more important given what we learned from "The New York Times."  The answer here is we both need to preserve the Mueller investigation and then to make sure that every aspect of the Mueller investigation becomes public. 
 
Whatever -- whatever`s in there, if it exonerates the president or indicts the president, it needs to be made public.  If you sort of step away from your feelings about Donald Trump, a federal police force deciding to investigate the president of the United States, you know, if you`re on the left you say, well, of course, Donald Trump deserves it and certainly that`s where the evidence lies.  But if you`re part of the 30 percent of the American population that still believes the president that this is a big witch hunt, you think -- well, of course, it`s a deep state, the FBI and the Department of Justice have run amok. 
 
Every aspect of the Mueller investigation and all of what will be extraordinarily well-documented deliberations within the FBI around this investigation, you know, for the purpose of the stability of our political system, the public is going to need -- and history is going to need to be able to scrutinize and understand the decisions that were made. 
 
REID:  Yes, and we know that the house intelligence committee is a very different committee now than when it was run by Republicans for very clearly different purposes.  Can you see your way clear to wanting to talk to some of the key people mentioned in this reporting who are privy to one of the two things that caused the FBI to ratchet up its inquiry?  One of whom would be don McGahn, the White House counsel, and the other would be Rod Rosenstein, who is on his way apparently out as deputy attorney general. 
 
HIMES:  Of course we will.  And, again, I think all of the House committees, Intelligence, Oversight, Judiciary, we`re all way behind the Mueller investigation because, of course, under Republican control, certainly the intelligence committee on which I served, under the chairmanship of Devin Nunes became the pr firm and defense attorney for the president of the United States.  So we are way behind with an investigation that was cut short, in which we didn`t follow up on testimony. 
 
So I think, Joy, the steps are going to be let`s watch what Mueller comes out with.  Mueller, of course, is focused primarily on whether there was criminal activity.  It is the role of the Congress to not necessarily look at criminal activity and think about indictments, but to actually get the broader and the bigger picture, you know, what, in fact, was Russia doing?  What are the flaws in our system that allow for a campaign to have multiple contacts with Russia?  Why did they lie about it? 
 
So, you know, we`re behind, but now that the house is under a Democratic majority, it will for the first time start acting as a responsible check and a balance on this out of control president.  And by the way, as we saw from Sarah Sanders` statement today attacking Barack Obama of all things on this night, pretty much an out of control and unhinged White House. 
 
REID:  Yes, it was quite a response.  I do have to ask you, and I understand that it is very important to try to determine what Russia did to our elections.  I think a lot of Americans care deeply about that.  But there is never in my memory, I`ve been paying attention to politics a long time, been a sentence like this written about an American president.  That a major law enforcement, federal law enforcement agency, the FBI was investigating whether the president of the United States had been working on behalf of Russia against American interests. 
 
There are a lot of Americans who are going to want to know whether or not, in your view, sir, this constitutes grounds to open an impeachment inquiry.  This is an incredibly serious allegation to be investigated at this serious a level.  Should there at least be inquiry into whether or not these constitute potential high crimes and misdemeanors?
 
HIMES:  Well, Joy, again, we`ve got to wait for the facts to emerge.  We can`t make judgment based on articles in "The New York Times." 
 
What you said is true.  Just the fact that what we know happened happened is beyond extraordinary, and, of course, that`s the world we live in right now.  You know, I`m expecting a declaration of a national emergency around a fake crisis that doesn`t exist.  You know, with emergency powers the president can do some remarkable things.  We are in a very, very different world. 
 
You ask about impeachment, joy.  Here`s my fear.  Here`s my fear.  The Constitution of the United States provides for impeachment for cases where the president has committed high crimes and misdemeanors.  My fear is, and Americans need to grapple with this, I am not sure given today`s politics, given the extent to which the president has done everything he can and his people, by the way and his supporters in the Congress of the United States, having done everything they can to delegitimize Mueller, to delegitimize the FBI and the Department of Justice.  I fear that there may not be anything, anything that Mueller could report that would cause enough Republican senators to decide that the president should be impeached, and that is, along with everything else we`ve been talking about tonight, a truly scary thought. 
 
REID:  Yes, indeed.  As we exit -- I`m going to let you go, sir.  But I have to ask you -- just from what you know as of now, what you`ve learned about the president of the United States so far.  Do you trust Donald Trump with the national security of the United States? 
 
HIMES:  I absolutely do not.  You know, I mean, I don`t know -- I don`t even know where to begin, right?  You know, the national security of the United States has a lot to do with competent foreign policy.  The president of the United States tweeted out that we were taking everybody, all of our troops out of Syria in 30 days.  The secretary of state and the national security adviser are saying something completely different. 
 
So we don`t even have a foreign policy at this point that is consistent out of the White House.  This president, of course, over the last two years has demonstrated that he has one concern and one concern only, and that is how much of a big man he is and how respected and how much he wins as a person.  It has nothing to do with the safety of the country.  It has nothing to do with the national security of the United States.  It has to do whether he goes to bed that night feeling like he won over crying Chuck and Nancy Pelosi or, you know, what the networks are saying about him on TV. 
 
REID:  Congressman Jim Himes, a member of the House Intelligence Committee, thank you so much for your time tonight. 
 
HIMES:  Thank you, Joy. 
 
REID:  Thank you.  Much more to come tonight. 

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