MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Chris Murphy

Interview

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MADDOW: Tonight, in reaction to the surprise resignation of the Defense  Secretary James Mattis, you heard their remarks from New York Senator Chuck  Schumer, the leader of the Democrats in the Senate, and from Nancy Pelosi,  the incoming speaker of the House.

Tonight, in reaction to that Resignation, I will tell you that one of the  leading lights on foreign policy in his party, Senator Chris Murphy,  Democrat of Connecticut, was even more blunt about it. He said this  tonight in response. Quote: A secretary of defense quitting over a public  disagreement with a president whose foreign policy he believes has gone off  the rails is a national security crisis. No way around it.

Joining us now is Senator Chris Murphy, Democrat of Connecticut, a member  of the Foreign Relations Committee. Senator, I really appreciate you being  here tonight.

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Yes, thanks for  having me.

MADDOW: I imagine that you might have thought that you`d be home by now.  But that`s not happening.

MURPHY: Yes, Congress.

MADDOW: I have to -- I want to talk to you about Secretary Mattis`  resignation, I want to talk to you about your very blunt remarks on this.  I do have to ask you, tomorrow, the Senate is due to convene at noon to  vote on a bill that will or won`t keep the government going.

MURPHY: Right.

MADDOW: Are senators all here or haven`t a lot of them left?

MURPHY: Many senators have already left. My friend Brian Schatz landed in Hawaii about an hour ago, he`s getting on a red eye to come back to vote 
tomorrow by noon.

MADDOW: He got all the way to Hawaii, said hi, and then said aloha, and  then turn around?

MURPHY: Turn around and coming back.

Right, because Vice President Pence came to the Republican Caucus yesterday  and told the Republican senators that the president was going to sign this  continuing resolution. So we all left last night, thinking that the job  had been done temporarily. Now, we are going to vote tomorrow on a  continuing resolution with $5 billion for a wall that will not have the  votes to pass in the Senate. The government will shutdown and it will be - - McConnell and Ryan`s decision is what to do next.

MADDOW: You say that with confidence, the bill with the $5 billion for the  wall, that it definitely won`t pass.

MURPHY: It can`t pass. I don`t know it will get a single Democratic vote.  And the president and the Republicans in the House have known that for a  long time, which is why Mitch McConnell moved this continuing resolution --  a clean continuing resolution earlier this week.

MADDOW: So, is there an effort to put together something else that might  be able to attract Democratic votes, or this is it, this is the one idea  they have, and you`re telling me right now there`s no way it will pass?

MURPHY: So, this certainly won`t pass. We have always been open to having  a conversation about a comprehensive immigration reform proposal that would  get tough on the border and solve all of the other lingering problems in the system. Or a budget agreement that has some additional money for a border security, but certainly not money for a wall that no one in this country wants, not least of which the people that actually live along the border.

But that conversation would have been nice to have been had last week or a  few days ago. It`s just absolutely insane, cruel and hurtful to all the  people who rely on the federal government and those jobs to be having the  conversation literally with hours to go before shutdown.

MADDOW: You would put the percentage of likelihood of a shutdown at 100  percent?

MURPHY: Ninety-five percent. I think it`s tough to pull a rabbit out of  the hat given where we are right now.

MADDOW: Let me ask you about the surprise resignation of Secretary Mattis.  It was a surprise to me, although I, like everybody, have read all the news  and been aware of the issues on which he disagrees with the president.  This seems to, reporting seems to indicate Courtney Kube, our Pentagon  reporter this does seem to be in reaction to the announcement on Twitter  about the pull out from Syria.

Were you surprised by this, and why do you think this is such a serious  matter that you actually called it a national security crisis?

MURPHY: I`m certainly surprised by it, in part, because Mattis has  weathered all sorts of substantial disagreements and reckless behavior from  this president. So it does beg the question if he was willing to go out  there and defend the Muslim ban or sending troops to the border as an  election year stunt, why was this the thing that broke the camel`s back?

That being said, it is a national security crisis because this was one of  the last people close to the president on national security matters who was  willing to tell him no when he was doing something truly reckless. Two, it  exposes this enormous rift between the Department of Defense, its  personnel, and the president of the United States. I still haven`t found  the last secretary of defense to resign in protest.

MADDOW: Right. Some have been fired, but resigning in protest over a  president`s -- well, yes.

MURPHY: And in public protest, right? Sending a letter which very clearly  delineates the places where the president`s national security has gone off  the rails. And then finally, and not insignificantly, we`ve left an ally  in the lurch. I wasn`t somebody who supported sending the 2,000 troops  there. But once you`ve made the commitment to protect the Kurds, once the  Turks have told you that they are maybe a week away from going after the  Kurds, it sends a bone chilling message to our other allies around the  world to leave with no plan for what to do instead.

MADDOW: Why do you think the president did it now? Obviously, the  president -- I mean, to be absolutely fair about this, he talked about  wanting to get troops home from all sorts of places all over the world. He  talked about not understanding the rationale for lots and lots of overseas  deployments.

And so, he`s been, in general, been inclined to talk about bringing people  home. Why do you think this announcement was made by this president right  now?

MURPHY: Yes, who knows, right? It may be the mental state of the  president.

It also may have to do with the impending offensive from the Turks.  Remember, many of us were very worried that 2000 troops was simply  insufficient to stop a Turkish force from doing what they said they wanted  to do for a long time, which is wipe out what they perceive to be a  terrorist group. They`re not a terrorist group, the Kurds, but that`s what  the Turks perceive.

Apparently, the president had a conversation with the leader of Turkey,  Erdogan, where he was given notice that this offensive was coming. It may  not be coincidence that he`s pulling the troops out after having been given  this notice.

MADDOW: That`s a crazy dynamic. A president of a foreign country says we  are planning on attacking your allies where you have 2,000 troops. The  response of the United States is, we better get out of the way then?

MURPHY: And why have been there the last two years. I mean, the whole  rationale given to us we are putting these troops in in part to send that  message to Turkey not to do this and make good on a promise we made to the  Kurds when we asked them to take on ISIS, that we would take care of them  on the back end. And so, right at the moment when the check is coming due  from the Kurds, it`s a very curious and very dangerous moment to walk  ought.

Again, I`m not somebody that thought it was a good idea in the first place,  but once you`ve made that commitment, you`ve got to follow through on that  commitment in some way, shape or form.

MADDOW: Do you find it unnerving the president of Russia praising the  decision today in the way that he did?

MURPHY: Of course. Of course, we have handed over American foreign policy  to the Kremlin in a number of different ways. This is just one element of  that. I will say, to back out from all of this, I have always believed  that the ultimate resolution of this was going to be Bashar al-Assad  winning, and the Iranians and the Russians being back in control of that  country. And we have been faking it in Syria for a very long time,  pretending as if we were going to be able to create some alignment in which  America was going to have our interests at the center piece of policy out  of Damascus.

That was never going to be the case. And so while I don`t like Putin  crowing about a victory in Syria, I also know that he was going to have a  big -- and is going to have a big say in the future role of what happens in  Syria.

MADDOW: We all have to worry about how much of a say he has and what our  government does on all sorts of issues.

Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, I`m sorry that you are at work this  week and still here, but I understand. Keep us apprised over the next 24  hours. I know it`s going to be dramatic.

MURPHY: Will do.

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