MSNBC "Hardball" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Ted Lieu

Interview

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MATTHEWS:  Any impeachment proceedings would originate in the House of Representatives in the Judiciary Committee. 
 
By the way, in May of 1974, that committee, Judiciary, began hearings into the impeachment of Richard Nixon, passing the first article of impeachment on July 27, citing obstruction of justice.
 
I`m joined right now by Congressman Ted Lieu, Democrat from California, and a member of the House Judiciary Committee.
 
Congressman, I`m sure you have looked back at the record and the language of obstruction of justice, tampering with witnesses, counseling them to lie to anyone that Congress or the federal judiciary is a crime, and apparently impeachable.  Your thoughts? 
 
REP. TED LIEU (D), CALIFORNIA:  Thank you, Chris, for your question. 
 
I`m a former prosecutor.  And let me first say that Donald Trump, like any other American, is entitled to the presumption of innocence.  I hope these allegations are not true, because, if they are, it means that the sitting president of the United States committed a felony. 
 
That`s why the House Judiciary Committee will start our own investigation.  We will hold hearings and get to the bottom of this serious matter. 
 
MATTHEWS:  Talk about the sequence.  You can hold hearings any time you want.  I just checked it historically.
 
In 1974, it was the House, by resolution, asked the Judiciary Committee to take up the matter of impeachment.  Do you need the resolution of the full House to investigate possible impeachment action? 
 
LIEU:  No, we don`t. 
 
And before we even get to the question impeachment, we have to first lay a record as to whether these allegations are true or false.  Right now, we have got a news article.  We have got to have witnesses come in under oath.  We`re going to subpoena documents, review all the evidence.
 
And we can have those hearings well in advance of any impeachment proceedings, if they were to occur. 
 
MATTHEWS:  Well, congressional Republicans remains mostly silent, sir. 
 
"The Washington Post" reports several Republicans on Capitol Hill sought to deflect questions.  Ohio Senator Rob Portman of Ohio said that Mueller`s investigation is a place to sift all this out and said it`s important for the investigation to continue unimpeded. 
 
Do you have to wait for Mueller, sir?
 
LIEU:  We do not. 
 
And, also, I am troubled by attorney general nominee William Barr`s testimony, where he suggested that he could hide all or parts of special counsel Mueller`s report.  And that`s why Congress, a co-equal branch of government, has an independent duty to conduct our own investigation, subpoena witnesses and documents, and then let the American people know what we find. 
 
MATTHEWS:  Well, you know the game they`re playing.  They`re saying you can`t impeach the president.  And, by the way, if you can`t impeach him, you can`t talk about him in a report, because all the report does is talk about what is indictable.
 
So, it`s sort of left him out, hasn`t it, by definition, the way that the former or future attorney general is talking?
 
LIEU:  In fact, one way to read William Barr`s testimony is that none of the report will be made public, because his view is that a sitting president cannot be indicted, even though that`s nowhere in the Constitution.
 
And if there`s no indictment, then you can`t really have anybody see all the negative information that Robert Mueller has found, including if the president committed a variety of crimes.
 
MATTHEWS:  One of the things I didn`t like about Jerry Ford way back then -
* I was much younger, of course -- when he pardoned Nixon. 
 
I know a lot of people thought -- even the Kennedy Center up at Harvard thought, well, maybe it was a profile in courage because it got the mess off the front pages for a year. 
 
But let me tell you, people like me wanted to know what Nixon had done.  We wanted to know exactly what had happened.  And we felt that the pardon eliminated our chance of ever finding out exactly what Nixon did under oath, that he`d have to come up and testify, that all the people around him would have to testify, and we would finally figure out the end of this horrible scandal. 
 
Do you believe we will travel this all the way to the final -- will we know in a year or so what Trump did in all these regards?  Will we?
 
LIEU:  I believe one reason Democrats won last November wasn`t just being that we ran on health care and investing in great jobs and infrastructure, but also that we were going to act as a co-equal and separate branch of government and get to the truth. 
 
So Democrats will subpoena the report if Barr tries to hide it, assuming he is confirmed.  And we will make sure the American people know the truth, regardless of whether it exonerates Donald Trump or finds him guilty.
 
MATTHEWS:  Well, one way he may try to hide the truth -- I`m talking about the president of the United States -- is to use witness tampering. 
 
Now, he put out today in a tweet that he`s going after these -- wants to be on the lookout for possible damage he can do to Michael Cohen`s father-in- law, who had some legal problems a while back.
 
And he basically -- like in "The Godfather," he`s threatening the relative.  And it`s weirdly funny, but it is weirdly awful too.  Here`s a guy who must have seen "The Godfather," like most guys have seen it, and knows that`s a felon in itself.  You can`t threaten a guy by saying, I`m going to knock off your brother-in-law or your sister or anybody, your -- I`m going to prosecute your father-in-law. 
 
What do you make of that?  Can he keep the witness from appearing before the Oversight Committee?
 
LIEU:  One thing that prosecutors look for is, we look for something called consciousness of guilt, which is, what would a guilty person do that an innocent person would not? 
 
So Donald Trump has had a lot of time now to respond to these allegations, and has he denied them personally?  No, he has not.  Instead, he tries to intimidate the key witness behind these allegations, and that is, in and of itself, a possible felony. 
 
Lanny Davis, Michael Cohen`s attorney, clearly believes that Donald Trump is trying to intimidate Michael Cohen.  And just because the president does it so brazenly doesn`t mean that it also is not a crime. 
 
MATTHEWS:  Thank you so much for leading into our next segment.  Thank you, Congressman Ted Lieu of California. 
 
We`re going to talk about that very question coming up right now. 
 
Does the BuzzFeed report, if true, what are the legal implications for Trump and his family?  Because the kids might get involved in this trouble.  This is serious business, covering this up, this whole business dealing with the Trump Tower in Moscow.
 
Covering it up may end up being illegal for some family members.
 
We will be right back.

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