CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript

Interview

CNN The Situation Room - Transcript

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BLITZER: Many top Democrats are on record. They expect Karl Rove and Scooter Libby to leave the White House if they're indicted in the CIA leak probe. We're joined now by the number two Democrat in the U.S. Senate, the Minority Whip Dick Durbin of Illinois.

Senator, thanks very much for joining us.

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D-IL), MINORITY WHIP: Good to be with you.

BLITZER: First of all, would you expect any administration official indicted to immediately resign? DURBIN: Yes, I would. Certainly those at the highest levels, such as the chief of staff of the president and vice president. And in all fairness now, no indictments have been handed down. We shouldn't presume it, although there's a lot of speculation in this town.

BLITZER: If they step down, would they go on sort of administrative leave? Would they still be on the payroll? Leave without pay? What would be specifically the stepping down that you would want?

DURBIN: You know, I can't tell you the formula, but I think to have the president of the United States with a chief of staff under that cloud of suspicion is really not good for our country. The president said at an earlier time that he believed that as well, that if someone was indicted for charges that are serious, that they should step aside. I hope he stands by that earlier statement.

BLITZER: We're looking at also a live picture of the U.S. courthouse. No indictments expected today -- possibly tomorrow or Friday, or maybe beyond. I assume you know this special counsel, the prosecutor, Patrick Fitzgerald, he's the U.S. attorney in Chicago. Do you have total confidence in him either way, if he issues an indictment or decides no crime was committed?

DURBIN: Yes, I do. I personally interviewed him for the job of the U.S. attorney for the Northern District after he was nominated by my senatorial colleague, and I came away very impressed. He is a professional prosecutor. He is not political in any way.

And when I talked to him very seriously about the problems of leaking information from a grand jury, he told me on his watch he would do everything in his power to make sure it didn't happen. And I think you'd have to concede, Wolf, that in this whole investigation at the highest levels that the information to the grand jury has really been protected with very, very few exceptions.

BLITZER: It's really been amazing how few leaks, if any, from his side there've been. There've been leaks from attorneys representing various witnesses, but not from him.

Here's what Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson, your Republican colleague from Texas, said on "Meet the Press" on Sunday. "I think we are seeing grand juries and U.S. attorneys and district attorneys that go for technicalities, sort of a gotcha mentality in this country."

She was referring if there's some sort of charge involving perjury or obstruction of justice, conspiracy, as opposed to the original issue, which was revealing the identity of a covert CIA officer. Do you agree with her?

DURBIN: Absolutely not. Let me tell you this, when this law was created by President Bush's father, it was in response to the publication of a CIA agent's name which jeopardized their life. And President Bush's father said that anyone who would disclose the identity of a covert CIA agent was the most -- and I quote -- "the most insidious of traitors." That's about as harsh as you can be when it comes to criticizing another person in America. So we're dealing with a very, very serious matter. It's a matter which goes to some fundamental questions of fair play and justice in America.

In this instance, someone, perhaps more than one, in the White House, disclosed the identity of this CIA agent in an effort to discredit and somehow cast some doubt about the veracity of charges against this administration and the information leading up to the invasion of Iraq that was venal, it was political, and it was criminal.

BLITZER: Let me read to you a quote, and I'll see if you remember this quote. It's from February 2, 1999. "It isn't a question of whether I can defeat the candidate of the other party. The question is, can I get him indicted or can I get him removed from office, or can I get him investigated?" Do you remember saying that?

DURBIN: No, I don't.

BLITZER: Well, you're quoted in the "St. Louis Post Dispatch" as having said that, referring to the Ken Starr indictments and going after Bill Clinton and other White House aides. There was a notion at that time that there was the criminalization of politics, if you will. And some are suggesting, Republicans right now, that's what's going on -- the Democrats lost and they're trying to criminalize politics right now with potential indictments.

DURBIN: Wolf, I think you're two steps ahead. We know now that someone disclosed the identity of a covert CIA agent, Valerie Plame. We know that that disclosure could be a serious crime, and that's what's being investigated by U.S. attorney Fitzgerald. Whether the actual charges turn out to be perjury is anybody's guess at this point.

We both can see that Patrick Fitzgerald has been a very good and professional prosecutor. But if people intentionally misled the grand jury or the U.S. attorney, if they were misled by the president's spokesperson at the White House, this is an extremely serious matter.

Now, what I'm saying, and what I said earlier, was it is true that some people go after indictments to try to discredit someone politically. But the underlying charge here is a very serious charge related to America's national security.

BLITZER: Listen to the president referring to the Harriet Miers nomination to the U.S. Supreme Court. You're a member of the Judiciary Committee. He said this earlier in the week on Monday.

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BUSH: They've asked for paperwork about the decision-making process, what her recommendations were. And that would breach very important confidentiality. And it's a red line I'm not willing to cross. People can learn about Harriet Miers through hearings, but we are not going to destroy this business about people being able to walk into the Oval Office and say, Mr. President, here's my advice to you.

BLITZER: Does the president make a good point?

DURBIN: Well, I think he makes an important point, but consider the context. We know so little about this woman who is seeking a lifetime appointment to the highest court in the land. She has not been responsive to questionnaires. The first time I can remember, the Senate Judiciary Committee questionnaire was returned by both Republicans and Democrats, and she wad told to do it over. I've met with her personally, many other senators have, and come away with no real understanding of who she is or what her qualifications are for the court.

So we're looking for more. If the president is going to say that communications between his general counsel and the president are privileged, that is certainly a good point. But certainly, things that she has written and disclosed to others outside the White House are not privileged. So we need the cooperation of the White House so we have a better insight into Harriet Miers and the kind of service that she would bring to the U.S. Supreme Court.

BLITZER: Were you up very, very, very late last night, Senator?

DURBIN: In my office, Mayor Richard Daley of Chicago joined the Illinois Congressional Delegation with Senator Obama until 2:20 in the morning, when we celebrated the third victory. We're hoping that things will be wrapped up tonight. First time in 88 years a World Series championship for the city of Chicago.

BLITZER: That would be the Chicago White Sox. Thanks very much, Senator. Good luck.

DURBIN: Thanks, Wolf.

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