NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Marco Rubio
Interview
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CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. President Trump is staking his reputation with his base on immigration. And he's hinting he could declare a national emergency if there's no deal for wall funding in three weeks. But if this week taught us anything, it's that the art-of-the-deal president may need to adjust his expectations. The last time Congress was close to a bipartisan immigration deal was 2013. The so-called Gang of Eight tried and ultimately failed to get it done. Only two Republicans who were in that gang still remain in the Senate. Lindsey Graham, who said it would be the end of the Trump presidency if he does not get a wall built, and my next guest, Senator Marco Rubio of Florida. So, Senator, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, we just went through 35 days, and the president signed a deal that was the same deal available to him on day one other than the end date of February 8th to February 15th. What did this shutdown accomplish?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Well, hopefully it teaches everyone that shutdowns are not good leverage in any negotiation. I think it's important to separate tactics from the policy aims here. There are some missed opportunities in all of this. We could have had an extension of TPS, which is a huge issue for people here in Florida, the Haitian community. We could have had a three-week extension for Nicaragua -- a three-month exten --, a three-year extension, I'm sorry, on that. We could have had people on DACA that could have had three years of certainty and that would have allowed them -- you know, it's better than what they face right now, which is they're waiting for a court ruling and what the administration is going to do. And so hopefully over the next three weeks, some of those elements can become part of what we do. But most important of all, I truly believe that if the president can get strong border security that satisfies his -- what he wants, it unlocks the opportunity to do other things on immigration that we need to do, like figure out something reasonable with the people that are not criminals that have been here a long time. But we've got to unlock that. It begins with border security. And that's one of the reasons why I think it's so important that we figure out a way to get something done that he's satisfied with, so we can move on to those other issues that he's personally expressed a willingness to be involved in.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, in fairness to you guys, the Gang of Eight in 2013, you all emphasized that you had to lead with border security. Michael Bennet was very impassioned about this, by the way, during the week. But I want to put up here, the 2013 bill had this. It doubled the number of border patrol agents. 350 miles of new fencing. Universal E-Verify system. New electronic visa tracking system. And the deal was the border security measures would go in immediately. The adjustments to immigration status for various groups would be phased in. I mean, didn't you guys have the model? Is this, is this deal worth taking off the shelf and making some minor adjustments?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Well, I think there's elements of it that we can. The problem was it was all done in one big piece of legislation. And the more stuff you put in the bill, the more reasons someone can find to be against it. You know, "I don't like that piece of it --"
CHUCK TODD:
You know, some argue the other way, Senator. Make the bill bigger, and, yes, okay, there'll be things you don't like. But that's the only way to get some things that you like.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Well, I mean, that was what they -- that was the theory that was pitched to me as opposed to why we needed to do one big comprehensive plan. So we did. And as you saw, it didn't work. And one of the arguments was the border security will never happen but the legalization part will. So there's no doubt it's a tough issue. And a lot of people who kind of looked at it in 2013 and said, "This easy. We're going to do it this way," are now figuring out how difficult this is. But ultimately, we've got to deal with it. And I just truly believe that, as you said, what the president wants is but a fraction of what that bill in 2013 did on border security. And if we can get something done that satisfies it, I am confident that the president is prepared to move forward on a bunch of other parts of immigration reform that people didn't normally associate with him or his White House. But we've got to do that part first.
CHUCK TODD:
You have said you're opposed to the national emergency option. In three weeks though, I know you guys have no appetite on either side of the aisle for another shutdown. So if that's the only way to keep the government funded, he goes national emergency, how defiant are you on this option? Will you fight the president on this or not?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
I don't think it's a good idea. I think it'll be a terrible idea. I hope he doesn't do it. I don't think it's leverage --
CHUCK TODD:
But would you fight him on it?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
-- either. Sure. Because I think that it's important. Look, I don't think we'll have to fight because I'm not sure they'll end up doing that. I know it's an option they've looked at. But now you're at the mercy of a district court somewhere and ultimately an appellate court. So it really may not even withstand if you look at some of the other rulings we've seen. The other is the precedent that it sets. And it's just not a good precedent to set in terms of action. It doesn't mean that I don't want border security. I do. I just think that's the wrong way to achieve it. It doesn't provide certainty. And you could very well wind up in sort of a theatric victory at the front end and then not getting it done. I think the best way to do it is to have a law passed that funds border security so we know it's going to happen.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to turn to Venezuela here and ask you because, first of all, you've been -- it's interesting. The New York Times calls you the ouster-in-chief today. But let me read you one part of this and get you to respond. "The administration has given no indication of a clear plan to protect the United States embassy and its personnel against possible retaliation. And while Mr. Rubio insists there are unspecified contingency options that he will not reveal, analysts say the Trump administration does not seem prepared with a plan B in case the leader there, Nicolas Maduro, defies the pressure and holds on to power, and essentially fights." The United States obviously has decided to recognize Mr. Guaido as the interim president. Do you want this administration to use military power if necessary to back up Mr. Guaido?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Let me answer that in three parts. Number one is I'm not the ouster-in-chief or anything like it. First of all, the credit belongs to the Venezuelan people who have taken to the streets. This is their movement, this is about them, and they're the ones that are courageous and are facing the threat of imprisonment. Number two is the decider here is the president, who has never needed any convincing on Venezuela. Do I offer ideas? Sure. He's got a great team around him. But ultimately, he has never needed convincing. And frankly, he has raised it with me, the issue of Venezuela, more than I've raised it with him. I haven't had to raise it with him. He cares about this. As far as these analysts saying that there's no plan B, how would they know? We wouldn't - -the government -- the Trump administration's not going to publish a plan, "Here's what we're going to do to keep our folks safe." I can tell you I've been in contact with the State Department and the people that are in charge of this, and they do have a plan. And they have several contingencies to plan on. And the most important of it is no harm should ever come to these diplomats. Mike Pompeo was very clear about it yesterday. If it does, there will be severe consequences. As far as a military option, I don't know who's calling for that. I can only tell you this. And this applies to Venezuela, anywhere in the world. The United States has always had the right to defends its national security and national interest with the use of force if necessary. I'm not saying that's what's going to happen here. I'm not specifying anything -- that's not my decision to make. I'm telling you the preferred outcome here is that Maduro leaves, and that in 30 or 45 days they call an election and they elect someone democratically, and Venezuela returns to constitutional order. That's what I want.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask you one quick question on WikiLeaks because you were -- you stood alone among your party in 2016. Let me play a clip for you from October of 2016 where you pledged never to use anything that came from WikiLeaks. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Well, I personally will not be talking about any revelations that come about solely as a result of WikiLeaks. Our intelligence officials who are not partisan people have told us that this is the work of a foreign intelligence agency.What I would say to my Republican colleagues some of whom may be disappointed by the position I've taken is today it's them, tomorrow it could be us.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
If you work with WikiLeaks, are you working against America?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Well, look I don't know if everybody had the same idea that I did or had access to the same information I did when I said that. Suffice it to say it should be clear by now, and I think should have been clear to people a long time ago that WikiLeaks and others like that could have been tools of foreign intelligence used to divide America. And so I do believe that anyone who is cooperating with them, wittingly or unwittingly, is doing the work of a foreign intelligence agency to harm us. But I know what you're getting at with Roger and all that --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
-- Stone and all that stuff. I can also tell you and frankly that I mean this you know in truth and not in the spirit of nastiness: The media was unwitting in this too because the media reported breathlessly on a lot of the revelations that were leaked that we know are now the product of the work of Russian intelligence. And I think all of us need to be wiser when we see this thing, or something hits your inbox or another reporter's inbox from a third party source that we don't know who it is, we have to be careful that we are not doing the work of the Russians or some other intelligence agency that's trying to undermine us. We all need to be wiser about this moving forward.
CHUCK TODD:
Should it be a crime working with WikiLeaks?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Well it's a good question. I think certainly if you're wittingly doing it, it should be considered as such. I mean you're participating in the work of a foreign intelligence agency. But one of the keys that they do is they're unwitting. It's not like they have a sign on the front door that says, you know, "We are an instrument of Russian intelligence' or "We are being used by Russian intelligence for this purpose.' But that's why I've supported the special prosecutor and the work they're doing. I think it's important for them to finish. We'll have all the facts before us, and then we can render judgment. I think it's a real big mistake, trust me, to jump to any conclusions until Mr. Mueller's work is done.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Marco Rubio, Republican from Florida, thanks for --
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
-- coming on, sharing your views. Good to talk with you.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Thank you.
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