CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview With Kentucky Senator Rand Paul

Interview

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TAPPER: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION. I'm Jake Tapper.

With Democrats about to take control of the House, some of President Trump's Republican support appears to be eroding, the top Senate Republican even saying he is distressed after Defense Secretary James Mattis announced that he's out.

The last straw for Mattis? The commander in chief announcing a surprise withdraw of all U.S. troops from Syria.

One Republican backing the president's decision is Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator Paul, thanks so much for joining us. I appreciate it.

I do want to start with the shutdown, just because, obviously, that's the pressing news in Washington right now.

When we have had shutdowns in the past, it's usually because the Republican Party is trying to get the federal government to spend less money. This is the first time I can ever think of that Republicans are forcing a shutdown because they want to spend more money, and not offset by any tax increases or spending cuts.

Do you support the president shutting down the government until he gets the $5 billion for the border wall?

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: You know, I have never been a fan of saying we're going to shut it down purposefully. But I have also not been a fan of keeping it open and spending so much money, that we're bankrupting the country.

This year, the deficit will be about a trillion dollars. And so I don't want to add more money. The bill we've got up there already looks like a Christmas tree with all things added.

I'm not against border wall funding, though, but I would find it and pay for it. Right now, we're spending $50 billion a year in Afghanistan. We could easily find $5 billion for a wall if we weren't spending so much money building and rebuilding Afghanistan.

TAPPER: Let's turn to foreign policy.

It's clear the president went against the advice of his defense secretary, his top official leading the fight against ISIS, Brett McGurk, and his national security adviser, John Bolton, when making the decision to withdraw troops from Syria.

You obviously support this policy. Did you talk to him about this?

PAUL: Yes, I have.

And I'm very proud of the president. This is exactly what he promised. And I think the people agreement with him, actually. I think people believe that we have been at war too long and too many places, and that we do need to turn attention to problems we have in home here, roads, bridges, schools.

We have a lot of problems in our country. And I think people are tired of spending -- you know, we have spent several trillion dollars on these wars everywhere. And I think the president promised that he'd be different.

And it's really one of the reasons he won, because he actually attracts independents, who aren't beholden to either party, who say, you know what, why don't we turn attention back to America.

TAPPER: After the president's surprise announcement, you applauded the decision.

But it seems that one of the last straws for Defense Secretary Mattis before he resigned was that the Turkish defense minister publicly threatened to slaughter the U.S.' Kurdish allies as soon as the United States withdrew.

Does -- does that not concern you at all, what the Turks might now do as soon as the U.S. is gone?

PAUL: Well, even General Mattis has sort of admitted that there is no military solution to Syria and that there's no military solution to Afghanistan.

So, I think really it's the opposite. I think the burden should be on General Mattis and those who want to stay forever in every war theater around the world, the burden is on them to say, if there's no military solution, why are we still sending more military?

Syria is an absolute mess. And the one lesson from Syria is that we need more diplomacy, and we actually need to have conversations with Russia. We have made it toxic for anybody to talk to Russia. But, if you're not willing to talk to Russia, Russia is a big player in Syria, has been for decades, is not going anywhere, and if we don't talk to Russia, we're never going to find a peaceful solution to the Syria mess.

TAPPER: Well, I think a major issue here for people who oppose the president's announcement is not just the withdrawal of U.S. troops, but the way it's being done, unilaterally, with little consultation with experts about it.

PAUL: Yes.

TAPPER: But I want you to take a listen...

PAUL: But here's the thing, Jake.

TAPPER: Well, just take a listen to what retired four-Star General and the former top diplomat charged with countering ISIS, General John Allen, told me earlier this week. And I want to get your response.

[09:25:01]

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TAPPER: You're always talking about the importance of alliances and the importance of diplomacy. Don't you think that the way this is being done, without consultation with allies...

PAUL: Yes.

TAPPER: ... could lead to...

PAUL: But -- but...

TAPPER: Go ahead.

PAUL: But here's the thing, Jake.

You get these generals, and they will say, oh, if we bring -- bring the troops home from Afghanistan, that's precipitous also.

And it's like, we have been there 17 years. How does it become precipitous to leave after 17 years? The president said when we went into Syria very clearly, we're going to defeat ISIS. That was our goal.

Then all these people who believe in forever war changed the goal. They changed the goalposts. They changed the mission. And they started saying, oh, we're going to stay there until Iran and Russia leave.

It's like that means we're saying forever, you know? Iran's not leaving anytime soon, unless you want to fight Iran. Do you want another war with Iran?

American people are tired of war. So, they want another war with Iran? Do they want us to have a war with Russia as well? I think we need to find a peaceful solution. And it is complicated, because it's going to involve the Turks. It's going to involve the Russians, the Iranians, the Iraqis, us. There's -- the Kurds.

I mean, all of these forces are going to have to come together. And it isn't going to be easy to find peace. But leaving our troops there is sort of like a trip wire to a much larger war. The war has every danger every day of becoming an explosive, expansive war.

And so I think the president is doing the best thing. He doesn't -- he said -- he said, we weren't going to be for nation-building. We're not going to go create a nation out of that chaos of Syria or Afghanistan. We're going to take care of things we have got here at home.

And I think, actually, the people are with him. Washington's against him, but this wouldn't be the first time that Washington doesn't represent the people very well.

TAPPER: Well, I hear what you're saying. But I guess one of the concerns also is, if the U.S. withdraws from

Syria precipitously and unwisely, then the question is, will the U.S. have to go back again?

Take a listen, for example, to something President Trump said during the 2016 campaign about Obama withdrawing U.S. troops precipitously and too early. Take a listen.

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TAPPER: Now, President Trump calls Obama the founder of ISIS because he says Obama's decision to withdraw troops from Iraq created this power vacuum in the Middle East.

Does the president -- doesn't he now...

PAUL: Right. I think it's important...

TAPPER: Go ahead.

PAUL: I think it -- I think it's important that we get history correct here.

Where did ISIS begin? They began in Syria in the midst of a civil war. The civil war got worse as the U.S., Qatar and also Saudi Arabia were supplying arms to people like ISIS, al-Nusra, al Qaeda, Sunni extremists fighting against Assad.

The problem is -- and this is the mainstream foreign policy problem of our country -- we think we always have to be involved. Maybe, when there's two evils -- Assad may be an evil, Sunni extremists may be an evil -- maybe we shouldn't always have to choose a side and be involved in a war.

But we got involved in that war, and we added to the chaos. And so the millions of people that left, that's on the -- on the hands -- the hands of many Americans who said, like Hillary Clinton, oh, we have got to be in there and we have got to somehow get rid of Assad.

It should not be the job of America to be replacing regimes around the world. This is what President Trump recognized in Iraq, that that was the biggest foreign policy disaster of the last several decades. And he's right,.

But guess what? All of these Republicans and all these generals you quote, they still don't get that the Iraq War was a mistake. And they're wrong. And I think the people actually know it. And if this were put to the people -- this is polled all of the time. I think 69 percent of the people were polled in a Pew poll recently

and said, we should get out of Afghanistan, whether it's sooner, later or immediately. People are ready to come home.

TAPPER: You're still not talking about the way that we're doing it.

But I do want to ask you just one philosophical point. And I don't want you to think that I'm being rude here. But I'm just wondering, in the last 20 years, is there any act of U.S. intervention with military force abroad that you support?

Do you -- did you support going...

PAUL: Yes. I supported...

TAPPER: Go ahead.

PAUL: Yes.

After we were attacked on 9/11, I did support to go into Afghanistan. I would have voted for the resolution. But we're ignoring the resolution. It said we'd go after those who planned, abetted, aided the people who attacked us.

It never said anything about associated forces, never said anything about war in Yemen, Somalia, Mali, Syria. None of this was ever authorized by Congress.

So, what we're doing in like seven different war theaters right now is unconstitutional. And we shouldn't be doing it. But I did support going in after 9/11. But I have not supported the nation-building. I would have declared victory long ago and come home.

And so, when the president declares victory over ISIS, he's exactly right. We took back 99 percent of their land. Aren't these people going to stand up and now fight for themselves? Can they not do anything?

[09:30:03]

And it doesn't work to have Americans there policing Muslim lands. It just engenders more terrorism. The longer Americans stay, the more terrorism you will have.

We are so forward-deployed, that we can attack on a moment's notice from anywhere on the planet. So, us leaving doesn't mean we don't have to be involved. We are offshore under the waters. We are everywhere around the planet. There is nothing about us leaving that means that we couldn't be involved if we had to be involved.

But, really, the people who live there, the Muslims who live in these lands need to police the Muslims who live in these lands. If it's Americans, it'll always be seen by those who live there as some sort of religious crusade. And it encourages more terrorism.

So, the sooner we get out of that mess, the better. TAPPER: All right, Senator Rand Paul, there's a lot you said there, but, unfortunately, we're out of time.

Merry Christmas to you and your family, sir. We really appreciate it.

PAUL: Same. Thanks, Jake.

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