Fox News "Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. John Hoeven and Rep. Henry Cuellar

Interview

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WALLACE: A Congressional Conference Committee has just 12 more days to strike a deal on border security that President Trump will sign before there's another government shutdown.

Joining me now, two members of that committee: from Texas, Democratic Congressman Henry Cuellar, whose district sits right on the border with Mexico and he says he opposes any money for a new barrier, and here in Washington, Republican Senator John Hoeven. He says there has to be money for a wall.

And, gentlemen, welcome to both of you to "Fox News Sunday".

SEN. JOHN HOEVEN, R-N.D.: Thanks, Chris.

REP. HENRY CUELLAR, D-TX: Thank you so much.

WALLACE: President Trump has been very pessimistic about the prospects that your committee is going to be able to come up with a compromising -- compromise, including funding for the wall. And here he is on Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I don't expect much coming out of the committee because I keep hearing the words that we'll give you what you want but we're not going to give you a wall. And the problem is, if they don't give us a wall, it doesn't work. Without a wall, it doesn't work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Senator Hoeven, is this as the president has been saying this week, a waste of time? What do you think are the prospects, the chances that you can come up with a deal, he only got 12 days left, less than two weeks to give the president something he can sign?

HOEVEN: Well, I think the president is trying to push the process along and, you know, you need to. I mean, we only have until February 15th. I think we can get to a solution but it does need to include barrier funding. It needs to include personnel, technology and funding for a border barrier.

WALLACE: Congressman Cuellar, here is Speaker Pelosi this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI, D-CALIF., SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: There's not going to be any wall money in the legislation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Congressman, is this a semantic game they are not going to support a wall but you would support a barrier? Where are you on that? Or is that no physical barrier at all?

CUELLAR: Well, you know, surely, I want to make sure we emphasize the deficiencies that we might be down there -- more personnel, more technology. First of all, we're not going to have a wall. Now, can we look at some sort of enhanced barrier? That's something we can certainly look at.

But I have to say, living on the border, you have to let the local border patrol chief have the say so and let the local communities be involved so they can come up with maybe some sort of enhanced barrier. But again, Washington cannot dictate what sort of barrier and where to put it at.

WALLACE: Well, let me make sure I understand, though, because a lot of the border patrol people have been saying they want to see at least in some areas, enhanced barriers. So, are you saying that you and the other Democrats on this conference committee could support the kind of fencing -- we just put up some pictures of it, very tall, 30-foot tall fencing that the president has been talking about?

CUELLAR: No. No, no. Notice what I said is that the local border patrol chief should make that local assessment of the threat and then you let the local communities have a say so. But Washington is not going to say -- is going to say what sort of barrier they're going to have.

Again, I don't believe in the wall. I think a wall is a 14th century solution.

The way the president is saying, the president is looking at a false premise. He thinks that the only way you secure the border is by having a wall. That is a false premise. There's other ways of securing the border.

WALLACE: Well, Senator Hoeven, you hear -- you are on the same panel with Congressman Cuellar. Do you hear the basis for possible deal there or not?

HOEVEN: That's why I proposed at our meeting this week that we bring in the border patrol professionals and were going to do that next week. Chairman Shelby has agreed on the Senate side, where working to get Chairman Lowey (ph) to agree as well.

And then we want the -- including the sector chiefs, to come in and say why they need border barrier as well as personnel and technology and take some of the politics out of the equation.

WALLACE: Let me continue with you, Senator Hoeven, because President Trump suggested this week that he may just give up on the work of your committee and declare a national emergency either during or just after his State of the Union Speech.

Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We will be looking at a national emergency because I don't think anything is going to happen. I think the Democrats don't want border security.

Listen closely to the State of the Union. I think you'll find it very exciting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Senator Hoeven, would that be a mistake for the president to preempt and not give you until February 15th to work out a deal? And how do you feel about the whole idea of declaring a national emergency in the first place?

One of your Republican colleagues, Senator Rubio, says you set that precedent, you're going to get a Democratic president somebody who says, well, we need national emergency to redirect funds on climate change.

HOEVEN: Well, the best solution is getting to one where Congress puts together a funding package for border security, including all three components that I've laid out that is acceptable to the House, the Senate, and to the president. That's the best solution.

There have been something like 58 emergencies declared under the National Emergency Act going all the way back to 1979 and President Carter. I think 31 of those are still enforced. So I think what the president is saying is if we don't compromise -- he's put compromise on the table, real compromise, things that Democrats want.

But if we can't get compromise out of Speaker Pelosi and get to a good solution, then he would be forced to go the national emergency route.

WALLACE: Congressman Cuellar, we have the State of the Union speech on Tuesday. What will be the response from House Democrats in the House chamber on Tuesday if the president stands there with Nancy Pelosi right over his shoulder and declares a national emergency?

CUELLAR: Look, when he says there's an emergency, let me give this analogy, if you have a fire if you're going to send that a fire department right there. You're not going to say, you know, if I don't get this, I will send the fire department. If you don't do this, I threaten you with this emergency.

That's not an emergency. By nature, the way he's been laying this out, any reasonable judge is going to say this is not an emergency.

And if you look at the emergency, what he talks about -- you know, our border area, I live at the border, it's safer than most areas, and I have use numbers before. FBI stats will show that the national murder rate is 5.3 murders per 100,000. The border cities are lower than that. In fact, Washington, D.C., is about three or four times more dangerous than Laredo, my hometown.

So, again, he knows it's not an emergency. He's using the threat as leverage to get a wall. He's not going to get that 14th century solution called the wall. It's a false premise (ph).

WALLACE: OK, let's get off the politics, both of you, and let's talk about the merits of the issue, and I've got some statistics here.

First of all, let's talk about the effectiveness of physical barriers. When they were put up in the Yuma, Arizona, sector, arrests for illegal crossings felt 94 percent in three years from 138,000 to 8,000. When barriers went up in San Diego, arrests fell 80 percent and seven years from over half a million to 100,000.

Congressman Cuellar, you voted for fencing in an appropriations bill last year, $1.3 billion for fencing. So why all this resistance to physical barriers now?

CUELLAR: Well, let's look at the effectiveness and the cost effectiveness of a wall. If you put money --

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: You keep talking about a wall.

CUELLAR: No, no, no --

WALLACE: Wait, wait, sir. Let's just talk about -- let's just talk about barriers rather than a wall.

CUELLAR: OK, OK. Let's call it a barrier but let's call it a fence, let's go in the middle, a fence.

WALLACE: OK.

CUELLAR: If you look at the cost-- let's look at the cause of one mile of technology, it will cost $1 million to $2 million per mile. One mile of fencing is going to cost $25 million to 26 million.

If you look at every border patrol chief since Bush, Obama and Trump, when I've asked them this question in appropriations, how much time does a fence buy you, that means how much does it slow them down? They all have said, quote, a few minutes or a few seconds.

If you look at Border Patrol Union, the Border Patrol before 2012 said that a wall was useless because they can go ahead, go under, go around and it is a waste of taxpayers dollars.

WALLACE: OK. Let me bring in Senator Hoeven, because the president keeps calling this a crisis and I want to look at some statistics on that, and this brings up some measures that Congressman Cuellar talked about. In 2000, the Border Patrol stopped 1.6 million people, 19 years ago. Last year, they arrested just a quarter as many, less than 400,000, and two- thirds of the people here illegally each year are visa overstays, not people who cross the border illegally.

So, I guess two questions. One, is there a crisis on the southern border? And two, whatever you want to call it, would a wall stop it anyway?

HOEVEN: Well, it is a crisis. And the numbers are going back up. If you look, we're now going back up to 50,000 to 60,000 people coming every month, 200,000 over the last four months. So, you can see this number is going back up.

And it's not just people coming here illegally. Look at the drug flow, look at the human trafficking, gangs, MS-13. This is something we've got to get a handle on and that's what you need all three components -- border barrier as well as technology and personnel. It's like a three-legged stool and the Border Patrol will tell you that, which is why I go back to what I'm trying to get done.

And you're going to see it happen this week, bring the Border Patrol professionals and, let's hear from them, what they need, why they need it.

WALLACE: OK. I'm going to try to step back for a minute, we've only got about two minutes left, but, Senator Hoeven, Congressman Cuellar, talk to each other. I mean, what's the basis for a deal?

HOEVEN: Sure. I have been to Laredo with Congressman Cuellar. He's a good man and I think we can get to a solution here, but we are going to have to have all three in a way that we can agree on. I'm certainly willing to fund personnel and technology. We've got to have some money for barrier as well.

WALLACE: Are you willing to do all of those things, Congressman?

CUELLAR: Well, I certainly want to sit down with Senator John and other members because I feel that if we don't get outside pressure, the committee can sit down and work this out. Appropriators are -- as you know in Washington, there's Republicans, Democrats and there's appropriators both in the House and the Senate.

We can work out a deal. I know we can sit down and work it if we just don't get any outside pressure, do what we need to do and I feel that the process as appropriators, House and Senate Democrats, Republicans, we can work something out. I feel confident.

By the way, the deadline is February 15th. If we have to do something, our committee probably has to do something by this coming Friday because then you got to print it out and then you've got to lay out the bills in the House and the Senate. So, it's less than February the 15th for the committee to come up with something.

WALLACE: All right, on that relatively helpful note, I'm going to say, Congressman Cuellar, Senator Hoeven, thank you both. Thanks for joining us today, and we'll be tracking what your committee does over the next week or maybe two weeks. Thank you both, gentlemen.

HOEVEN: Thanks, Chris.

CUELLAR: Thanks.

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