CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Jim Himes (D-CT)

Interview

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BLITZER: Yes. No end in sight right now, and 800,000 federal workers with their families, they are suffering. No paychecks and millions of federal contractors, no paychecks for them either. They and their families are suffering, as well. Pamela Brown, thank you very much.

Joining us now, Democratic Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut. He's a member of the Intelligence Committee.

Congressman, thanks for joining us.

REP. JIM HIMES (D), CONNECTICUT: Good evening, Wolf.

BLITZER: Let's begin with your reaction to this bombshell report from Buzzfeed News. If true, did the president of the United States commit the crime of obstruction by allegedly directing his former attorney to lie to Congress?

HIMES: Yes, well, thanks for framing it that way, Wolf. It is a news report at this point. And it is a news report that apparently comes from two sources inside the investigation, but also, apparently, there is documentation. There are e-mails.

We are going to need to see that documentation, because what the lawyers call suborning perjury, encouraging somebody to lie to the United States Congress, that is a very, very serious crime.

[17:15:00] And by the way, forget about whether that's a Democrat or a Republican talking. The precedent here, both Richard Nixon and President Clinton, the articles of impeachment against those two, including encouraging people to lie.

And of course, Cohen himself, who may come before the Congress soon, will be spending time in prison for lying to Congress.

BLITZER: I know you've spent, what, the last 18 months looking into all of this. Congressman, have you seen personally independent evidence to back up this Buzzfeed report?

HIMES: Well, the Buzzfeed report, Wolf, is -- the bombshell, as you called it, is that the president encouraged Michael Cohen and perhaps others to lie to the Congress. We, of course, have not had access to that in specific. I also am limited in what I can say about what we saw in the investigation.

But it should come as no surprise to you, you know, particularly since some of the transcripts have been made public, that there was anything but hesitancy on the part of the witnesses that we interviewed to mislead the Congress.

BLITZER: Well, let me rephrase the question. Based on everything you know and based on what you can say, can you confirm the Buzzfeed report?

HIMES: No, I can't confirm the Buzzfeed report. And remember, that report was based on two sources who were inside the investigation and apparently refer back to materials -- and this is according to the Buzzfeed report -- that the special council has from the Trump Organization itself. Not from Michael Cohen, but from documents, e- mails and and other communications within the Trump Organization that I have not seen.

BLITZER: A lot of Democrats, as you know, they've been reluctant to talk about potential impeachment proceedings until Mueller finishes his investigation. But if this report is true, should Democrats consider beginning that process, even before Mueller releases his report?

HIMES: Well, I'm glad you asked the question that way, Wolf, because impeachment is a process. Impeachment is the process whereby the Congress determines whether the president is fit to continue to serve. And there is an impeachment in the House, followed by the trial in the Senate. That is an open process in which evidence is shown.

Look, I think we're at the point, Wolf, where certainly, if you look back at the impeachments of Bill Clinton and the the prospective impeachment of Nixon, because he was never impeached, you know, between the allegations that the president improperly paid or had two women paid off and now this allegation, if those things prove to be true, those would certainly be consistent with articles of impeachment levelled against other presidents.

But Wolf, there's a -- there's a thought process that needs to happen here. First of all, we need to find out whether, in fact, that is truly credible that these things happened.

But the other thing that we need to remember, Wolf, and this puts us in a real bind, because the Constitution would have us impeach a president who has committed crimes. But we're in a very ugly position in the Congress right now, because it is not clear to me that there is anything, any crime that would cause Republicans in the Senate or even Republicans in the House to support an impeachment or a conviction.

And look, let me quote the president. The president himself said that "If I killed somebody on Fifth Avenue, my people would stay with me." I am pretty sure that we are in a place today where, if it turned out that the president killed somebody on Fifth Avenue or anyone else, anywhere else, there are members of the Congress and members of the United States Senate who would still stand with him.

BLITZER: Well, let me just be precise on that. So in other words, believing, as you apparently do, that it wouldn't get two-thirds majority in the Senate for conviction following a formal trial, are you suggesting that it simply would be a waste of time for the House of Representatives to go through an impeachment process? HIMES: No, I'm not. I'm actually suggesting the reverse, which is

that Americans need to understand that impeachment is a process to get at the truth. And so, no, I'm suggesting the reverse, which is that if there is really substantial evidence that the president committed serious crimes, the Constitution would have us impeach.

Now, there's a couple of ways we can learn whether we crossed the serious crimes threshold. One is -- which I think right now is the appropriate one -- to listen and watch for what the special counsel tells us. And, you know, he's not done yet. And every week, there seems to be new allegations, new questions, new suspicions. But nonetheless, I think we should wait to see what he comes up with.

And of course, there's a second route, which is we don't need to rely on the special counsel. And in fact, if the special counsel is somehow prevented from issuing his report, and clearing up all of this craziness for the American people, Congress can independently subpoena witnesses, can get the information that the special counsel had so that we can conduct our own investigation and come to our own conclusions.

BLITZER: It's not just the president who could be in jeopardy. His family could be in trouble, as well. According to this Buzzfeed report, Donald Trump Jr. was briefed by Michael Cohen on this deal. If that's true, do you believe he perjured himself in front of your committee, the House Intelligence Committee, during his testimony back in 2017?

[17:20:16] HIMES: Let me not answer that too specifically. But let me say this. When we know what actually happened, because we get to see what the special counsel turns up in terms of these documents from the Trump Organization, we are going to want to closely compare that to what witnesses said to our committee.

Because we know one thing, Wolf. We have a lot -- we have a ways to go in terms of Russian collusion and the conclusion of the special counsel's investigation.

One thing we know without a shadow of a doubt today is that everybody, it would appear, was lying. Michael Flynn going to jail because of lying. George Papadopoulos in jail because of lying. Manafort lying, Cohen lying. The list goes on and on. And so lying seems to be the default tactic of an awful lot of the president's people. And so let me just answer your question by saying that nobody gets the benefit of the doubt.

BLITZER: I guess I'll -- I'll ask you a final question on this. You didn't mention, by the way, Rick Gates, who was Manafort's deputy. He was convicted, and he pled guilty, as well.

What about Ivanka Trump, the president's daughter? She was mentioned in this Buzzfeed report, as well. Do you believe she needs to testify in front of Congress?

HIMES: Well, so I read the article and, evidently, there was some notion that she would have the spa in the Moscow Trump Tower, which of course, the president many, many times told us not only were we not even there in terms of talking about a spa but there was never any idea of a tower.

So if they were already sort of planning the architecture of a spa that -- in the building that the president told us never was even a figment of anybody's imagination, that's a problem.

I don't know -- I don't have any reason, sitting here today, to believe that Ivanka lied to the Congress. It's not clear to me when she did talk to the Congress. But --

BLITZER: Has she talked -- I'm not sure she ever was called to testify before Congress.

HIMES: Yes. Yes. So I don't -- I don't have any reason to believe.

BLITZER: But the question is, would he want her to testify?

HIMES: Well, you know, I'm a lot more interested in -- you know, because she hasn't come before the -- before the committee and made, you know, statements that might be questioned, I have other concerns. I mean, I hear that she may be in charge of choosing the next president of the World Bank. And again, it's a little hard to know what's true and what's not true in this White House.

But, you know, her husband testified in front of the committee. She did not. So I -- you know, I don't think there's any reason, necessarily, to believe we have the same kind of problem with her that we had with other witnesses in front of the Congress.

BLITZER: All right. Jim Himes, as usual, thank you so much for joining us.

HIMES: Thanks, Wolf.

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