CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview With Florida Senator Marco Rubio

Interview

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TAPPER: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION. I'm Jake Tapper.

Republicans in the Senate are poised to do something unusual this week, break with President Trump over his Saudi Arabia policy.

This comes as new insight into the scope of the Mueller probe is putting more pressure on both the White House and on Republican lawmakers who have been supportive of the president.

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TAPPER: Joining me now is Republican Senator Marco Rubio of Florida. He's a member of the Senate Intelligence and Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator Rubio, thanks so much for joining us.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: Thank you.

TAPPER: I want to -- I want to get to all those issues I talked about in the -- in the open in a moment.

But, first, I want to ask you about retiring Chief of Staff John Kelly. Speaker Ryan called him a -- quote -- "force for order, clarity and good sense."

If the last year was an example of order, clarity and good sense, are you at all concerned about what happens next with a White House without John Kelly?

RUBIO: Well, it depends who they put in as a replacement.

As I said, I'm a huge John Kelly fan. I have known him since his time he served in Florida in Miami. He was -- his last assignment before retiring from the military was running Southern Command. And he did a great job there. He did a great job at Homeland Security. And we had a great working relationship with him as the chief of staff.

There's always turnover in that position, obviously. It's -- every president has at least a couple. And so, obviously, it's a loss to see him go. And now we will see who they put there as a replacement, and we will go from there.

But, hopefully, it'll be someone -- he's hard to replace, there's no doubt about it. But, hopefully, it'll be someone just as qualified, just as strong, that gets -- it's good for our country to have someone like that in that post.

TAPPER: Let's turn to new court filings this week from the Southern District of New York.

Here's what they wrote about former Trump lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen -- quote -- "While many Americans who desired a particular outcome to the 2016 election knocked on doors or toiled at phone banks, Cohen sought to influence the election from the shadows. He did so by orchestrating secret and illegal payments" -- unquote.

Now, prosecutors say Michael Cohen made the payment -- quote -- "in coordination with and at the direction of" then candidate Donald Trump.

You were a candidate for president in 2016 running against Donald Trump. Does it bother you that they were breaking campaign laws, allegedly, in order to win the election? RUBIO: Well, not from that -- not about me.

I mean, when that happened, I was well outside of the race. It's about the country. It's about what our laws are and about the fact that no one should be above the law.

From the very beginning of all of this, I have said, what we deserve is the truth. No one is beneath the law, meaning no one is not entitled to the protections of it, but, also, no one is above it.

So, I would just say that we want to know everything, and we will know everything that's happened here at some point. Mr. Cohen has a version of it. Obviously, those who are accused or potentially accused as part of it have another. And we don't know what additional information the Justice Department has to corroborate some of this. They don't necessarily have to put that in the -- in these filings, because they are sentencing filings.

So, my interest from the very beginning in all of this is for all the information to be out there before the American people, so that the court system can make judicial and justice decisions, and the American people can make political decisions as a -- and Congress as well.

So, I'm going to wait for all of that to come forward. Obviously, this is relevant information and things that -- that cannot and should not be ignored.

TAPPER: If it is proven that the president directed an aide to commit felonies to influence the election, what should the repercussions be?

RUBIO: Well, again, we're speculating, right, because we don't know what additional information the Justice Department have.

You have someone here who's facing criminal charges, who is facing sentencing, and is looking for leniency saying one thing. And it's not atypical people to be very cooperative and sometimes to stretch the truth. I'm not saying that's what's happened here. And you have someone who denies it.

But your -- the answer to your question is, if someone has violated the law, the -- the application of the law should be applied to them, like it would to any other citizen in this country. And, obviously, if you're in a position of great authority, like the presidency, that would be the case.

I don't know if it's going to reach that point or not. We have to wait and see. But my -- my decision on that or my position on that will not be a political decision. It'll be the fact that we are a nation of laws, and no one in this country, no matter who you are, is above it.

TAPPER: Yes, it's -- just a point of clarity.

It's not just Michael calling saying this. The Southern District of New York U.S. attorney is asserting this. And that was what was stark about the different language. They weren't just saying, according to Cohen, such and such. They were saying, this -- this happened.

RUBIO: Well, that's why -- and that's why I think people should reserve judgment, because we don't know what additional evidence they have that has not been introduced in the public record to corroborate taking that position.

[09:20:07]

And there may be additional evidence presented at the sentencing phase later on. We don't know. There may not be any more. It may just be on based on his testimony.

But because we don't know, we can't make decisions or make pronouncement on things that we don't know yet.

TAPPER: Your fellow Florida Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz has called for the president's pardon his former campaign chair Paul Manafort. That's part of the Mueller investigation, not the Southern District of New York.

Would that be a mistake? Or do you think that's a good idea, to pardon Manafort?

RUBIO: Yes, it would be a mistake. It would be a mistake. And I would strongly counsel against it.

I don't think that the -- in my view, the presidential pardon power was not created for these sorts of purposes. I just think it would be the wrong thing to do. And I think it would be a huge political mistake as well. So, I hope that doesn't happen. And that would be my position on it.

TAPPER: Let's turn to Saudi Arabia.

You introduced a resolution that finds the Saudi crown prince -- quote -- "complicit" in the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, which the president has not done, asserted that he was complicit.

Now "The New York Times" is reporting that the president's son-in-law adviser, Jared Kushner, has reportedly been coaching the crown prince on how to withstand the blowback over the murder of Khashoggi.

Do you think the White House is -- is standing up for American values here?

RUBIO: Well, I don't know if that story is accurate or not.

Here's what I can tell you. The American -- this story is as much about America as it is about Khashoggi. Obviously, what happened to that man is terrible. But it's also about who we are as a nation.

The alliance with Saudi Arabia is a very important alliance. Our alliance is the Saudi alliance, not an alliance with the crown prince, with the Saudis. And so it is an alliance that has limits, like any alliance would. This is a crown prince that is a reckless individual. He's young. He's immature. But, in addition to that, he is reckless. And if we -- he's going to continue to test the boundaries of what he can get away with internationally and within our alliance, until those boundaries are set.

As far as knowing that he's engaged, look, here's the bottom line. And I don't -- we don't need direct evidence that he ordered the code red on this thing. The bottom line is that there is no way that 17 people close to him got on a charter plane, flew to a third country, went into a consulate, killed and chopped up a man, and flew back, and he didn't know about it, much less order it.

And we don't need any other -- those -- it just stretches credibility to believe that, in a country like that -- this is not some decentralized country -- that, in a country like that, a man with his power, his influence and his control did not know it and did not order it. It's just not believable, and especially knowing what we know about that -- that -- that government.

So, that's why we filed that resolution. I feel strongly that it is as much about who we are as a nation as it is about the gentleman who was killed here. And it's a terrible thing that happened to him and his family. And I'm not diminishing it. But I'm telling you that, as a country, we cannot basically be a nation that says, when our allies do something horrifying, we're going to look away.

I'm not saying shatter the relationship with Saudi Arabia. It's an important alliance. But there has to be accountability for what happened here, and it has to be clear to the world that America is not a supporter of it and is not going to be a facilitator of these sorts of crimes.

TAPPER: Is -- is President Trump looking away? Is he facilitating a crime?

RUBIO: Well, I don't know about facilitating, because it's after the fact.

But I do think that, if we're not strong and the administration's not strong about this, he could do this again, he could do something worse in the future, or someone else could. That's the point we're trying to make here, is that U.S. foreign policy and our alliances are important, but they are not without limits.

And it's in our national interest to care about this, because human rights violations -- and if someone's chopping people up in a consulate, you know they're going to violate human rights at home and around the world. It leads to mass migration and leads to instability. It's the fuel behind radicalism in many cases.

Sometimes, it gets these governments overthrown, and the people who take over hate us because we were the people defending those who were abusing them. So, it's not in our national interests to be a defender of human rights violations. TAPPER: Lastly, sir, I want to ask you, there are allegations that a

Republican campaign operative in North Carolina's 9th District threw out Democratic votes, altered absentee ballots.

Both the Democrat and the Republican in North Carolina are now raising the possibility of a new election there.

As I'm sure you remember, in Florida a few weeks ago, you were very outspoken about the fear of Democratic lawyers trying to -- quote -- "steal" the election during the recounts in Florida. Ultimately, Republicans won both of the recounts.

Are you concerned at all about what's happening in North Carolina, which seems to have very concrete examples of election fraud? And if you are concerned, how come you haven't said anything about it yet?

RUBIO: Well, because, in the case of Florida, it isn't just Florida. It's one county, Broward County, an elections official that I'm very familiar with, everyone in Florida is very familiar with, including our state press, who was not just -- was incompetent.

And that incompetence created an opening for lawyers to go to court and have state law reinterpreted in a way that could have impacted the election. And that's -- that is what I characterize as stealing. Elections should be decided by voters, not by courts.

Now, in terms of North Carolina, I don't know nearly as much about it, only what I have read in the press. If someone did something like that, I don't care who it benefited. That -- that should not count. That should not happen.

[09:25:03]

The individual responsible for it should be potentially prosecuted, should be removed from their office. Elections should be decided by voters, not by judges, and most certainly not by election officials violating the law.

So, if that's what is happened in North Carolina, then I think that's what the penalty should be. That person should be held accountable, and whatever remedy that's appropriate should be applied.

I just don't know as much about the North Carolina cases I do about the Florida one, because we have been living the Brenda Snipes saga for over a decade now here in Florida in Broward County.

TAPPER: All right, Senator Marco Rubio of Florida, thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it, as always.

RUBIO: Thank you.

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