MSNBC "All in with Chris Hayes" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Jim Himes

Interview

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HAYES:  Well, and it looks like we`re on the precipice of learning some new information.  Jill Wine-Banks and Nick Akerman, thank you both.  Joining me now, Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut, a Member of the House Intelligence Committee.  What do you make of all this, Congressman?
 
REP. JIM HIMES (D), CONNECTICUT:  Well, we were waiting for that other Mueller shoe to drop post-election and I guess -- I guess that process has begun in a big way.  Look, I having listened in on the show, you know, one thing we know about Manafort, he may be a dirty guy, he`s not an irrational guy.  You know, he doesn`t do things that are -- that are stupid for his own well-being. 
 
So you know, of course as somebody who participated in the House Intelligence Committee investigation of what was going on I`m very interested about what he might have been trying to hide, what he might have been trying to signal to the president that he did him right in the expectation of a pardon down the road.  So look, the other lesson here of course is you don`t pull one over on Mueller so I fully expect that we may get a glimpse into whatever it was that Manafort was trying to hide.
 
HAYES:  Well, from your perspective, I wonder like the president -- the possibility the president has communicated or communicated through intermediaries about pardons.  How relevant is that to you as a member of Congress and a member of a Democratic majority that`s about to take a gavel back as something that you think Congress has a right to find out.
 
HIMES:  Well, of course, we have a right to find out I mean at some point that sort of thing becomes a willful obstruction of justice which is a crime and arguably an impeachable crime as Richard Nixon so dramatically learned.  And so -- but you know, here`s the thing, Chris.  Who knows?  Maybe it happened but you know, what do we know about Donald Trump?  He`s willing to do outrageous things you know, while he`s president United States with a reelection in front of him. 
 
So if you`re any one of these individuals who`s pled guilty including Paul Manafort in the back of your mind is thinking to yourself hey, on the last two days of this guy`s presidency you know, of course he`s going to -- he`s going to pardon me especially if he knows that I served his interest.  And that gets me back to why exactly did Manafort -- what exactly was he trying to cover up here.
 
HAYES:  What -- how would pardons land on Capitol Hill? 
 
HIMES:  You mean, how would we learn if somebody had been promised a pardon?
 
HAYES:  I mean, what were the political reverberations be of a pardon by the president of someone like Manafort or someone involved in this?
 
HIMES:  Oh look, I think you know, I think that would be politically very tough.  I mean, you know, the lesson -- remember, Capitol Hill is fundamentally a political entity.  People on the Republican side make their calculus based on what`s likely to happen in the next election.  And if the president is toxic, if his approval ratings are five points lower than they are today, at some point Mitch McConnell and other Republican leaders start saying oh my God, you know, we`re going to -- in 2020 we`re going to be where we were in `08 where we`re at significant risk of losing the presidency in our Senate majority.
 
And at some point, if the numbers get low enough, those Republicans are going to distance themselves from Donald Trump.
 
HAYES:  Yes.  The question is how low and what it will take to get there.  Do you -- let me ask you this too -- and I`ve asked members of Congress and members United States Senate but I find it fascinating.  You`re watching the Mueller investigation as if it`s in a black box, like every other one of the 350 million Americans right?  I mean, you don`t no idea what`s coming and you have no idea what the underlying facts are?
 
HIMES:  Well, the first part is certainly true.  I mean, Bob Mueller very intelligently has kept a you know, has kept the Congress completely in the dark in particularly the Intelligence Committees.  The House Committee obviously having been so compromised by the actions of Chairman Devin Nunez so Mueller has you know kept us off with a bargepole.  Do we know more facts?  Yes.  Of course, you know, both the Senate in the House have undertaken their own investigations and so yes, we probably do have a few more facts than the average person out there.  But you`re absolutely right, with respect to the Mueller investigation we`re reading about a lot of this stuff in the newspaper.
 
HAYES:  All right, well, buckle up.  Congressman Jim Himes, thank you very much.
 
HIMES:  Thank you, Chris.

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