NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Rand Paul
Interview
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CHUCK TODD:
Joining me now, from across the aisle, is Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky. Senator Paul, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.
SEN. RAND PAUL:
Good morning, Chuck. Thanks for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Let me start where I left off with Senator King. Based on these federal documents that you've seen from Michael Cohen at this point, if he wasn't president, do you think Individual-1 would have also been indicted along with Michael Cohen?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
You know, I think what's interesting about this is people forget history. The Federal Elections Commission actually ruled on this with John Edwards. They actually came up with a ruling and said that, "You know what? The paying of his mistress was not a -- was not a campaign finance violation." But I think it's bigger than this. And I think we have to decide in our society if -- there are thousands and thousands of rules. It's incredibly complicated, campaign finance. We have to decide whether or not really criminal penalties are the way we should approach criminal finance. I personally think that if someone makes an error in filing paperwork or in not categorizing a campaign contribution correctly, it shouldn't be jail time. It ought to be a fine. And so it's just like a lot of other things that we've done in Washington. We've over criminalized campaign finance.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you, though, about the allegation that Michael Cohen had circulated his false testimony to Congress in advance, so people in and around the president, perhaps his lawyers, perhaps him, knew in advance that Michael Cohen was going to lie to Congress. That's something--
SEN. RAND PAUL:
About what issue?
CHUCK TODD:
About the issue--
SEN. RAND PAUL:
About what issue?
CHUCK TODD:
--of the Trump Tower Moscow -- the Trump Tower Moscow --
RAND PAUL: --yeah--
CHUCK TODD: --project.
RAND PAUL: --I don't -- I guess I don't--
CHUCK TODD: Is that troubling enough--
SEN. RAND PAUL: Yeah --
CHUCK TODD:
--to you? How does that sit with you?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
I guess I don't -- I guess I don't quite understand it because I don't know what's illegal about trying to build a hotel in Russia. So this is pretty common. And I see no problem with someone running for president trying to build a hotel somewhere. Now, if you were asking and saying, "I will give you something in exchange for letting us build a hotel," that would be wrong. But I haven't heard any of evidence of that. Just trying to build a hotel somewhere, I can't imagine how that would be criminal--
CHUCK TODD:
But if--
SEN. RAND PAUL:
Or why you'd lie about it if it's not criminal.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, that's what I'm curious about. Why do you think that the story keeps changing in and around the president? If all of these things are as innocent --
SEN. RAND PAUL:
I think because --
CHUCK TODD:
-- as you've said, why does he keep changing the story?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
Well, I think it goes back to this whole idea of prosecutorial abuse. So Cohen is facing -- you know they're saying, "Oh, he's getting this long sentence of four years. Oh my goodness." He's getting a really, really short sentence. They're threatening him with 20 years or life in prison for all these different tax evasions. They're shortening it to four years, but they keep getting the story to change. But maybe that's because the prosecutor's pressuring him, saying, "Well, if you don't give us something on Trump, guess what? You get 20 years. If you give us something on Trump, you get four years." And so this is prosecutorial abuse I think. And that's why his story keeps shifting. And the thing is it makes no sense. The president was talking to the media openly about the deal in Russia in 2015. Why would it make a difference whether he still was talking to people in Russia in 2016 versus 2015? So really I think we're trying to make and find a crime. This has been my overall complaint about the -- about having the special prosecutors, is that really they find a person, and they look for a crime. Traditional justice in our country is someone steals something from the grocery store, and you have a crime, you try to find out who did it. With a special prosecutor, you decide, "We're going after someone, the president. And we're gonna squeeze as many people as we can until we can try to get a person." And that's why I'm against these special prosecutors. I think they're a huge mistake. And I think they're a huge abuse of government power.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, the reason he was appointed was to investigate Russian interference. It wasn't to investigate the president. It was to investigate Russian interference.
SEN. RAND PAUL:
Well, then --
CHUCK TODD:
Which is what he's --
SEN. RAND PAUL:
-- why is he investigating --
CHUCK TODD:
-- investigating.
SEN. RAND PAUL:
Right. But why is he investigating tax evasion and whether or not you filed as a federal lobbyist? All the stuff that's been done to either Manafort, or Flynn, or any of the others really seems to be about other subjects. And really what they did to Flynn I think was unconscionable. And I'm hoping that means Mueller has a conscience is why. Maybe it's not that Flynn gave so much information. Maybe Mueller has a conscience and knows how unfair it was, they did to Flynn, to illegally eavesdrop on his phone conversation. He never was discussing anything that was illegal. But then he gets tied up in talking to the FBI whether he was explicit even though the original FBI agents said they did not think he was being duplicitous. They did not think he was lying. So it's very troubling what these special prosecutors can do. And I tell people this. If a special prosecutor went after your life for the last 40 years, not you in particular --
CHUCK TODD:
I understand.
SEN. RAND PAUL:
-- but anybody, I think they could dredge up -- they could dredge up accusations. So I'm absolutely against it, and I think it's a miscarriage of justice. And we should not have special prosecutors going after one person. And if we get this way and if we're gonna prosecute people and put them in jail for campaign finance violations, we're gonna become a banana republic--
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you --
SEN. RAND PAUL:
-- like where every president gets prosecuted and everybody gets thrown in jail when they're done with office.
CHUCK TODD:
Then let me ask you this. You're a, I would argue, a strict constitutionalist. I think you would probably take that as a compliment when it comes to your --
SEN. RAND PAUL:
Absolutely.
CHUCK TODD:
-- purified reading. Does that mean then this belongs in Congress's hands, that it's up to Congress to investigate these crimes and not a special prosecutor?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
Yes. And the other thing is crimes can be investigated as well if there are crimes that are being committed. But without a special prosecutor what happens is you investigate crimes. You don't go to this whole idea of sort of conspiracy. And here's the danger of conspiracy. And we're discussing this right now with reforming our drug laws. What they do is an unfortunate young woman is, you know, transferring money from her boyfriend who's a drug dealer, gets caught up. They add conspiracy to it, and they add 10, or 15, or 20 years. And now this woman's in jail for life for, you know, exchanging some money with a drug dealer. So we have to be wary of what we do with conspiracy because it adds a lot of years to sentences. And we compound these sentences. And we have nonviolent people in prison now. There was a guy who sold marijuana and got caught for his third time, and he got 55 years in prison. That's not right.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to move to Saudi Arabia. You've been one of the leading advocates of getting out of the war with Yemen, getting American -- America out of that. I'm curious. I want to play for you the president's friendliness to Saudi Arabia. And I'm curious if this bothers you. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
DONALD TRUMP:
I like the Saudis. They're very nice. They buy my apartments. You wouldn't believe it. I make a lot of money with them. They buy all sorts of my stuff. All kinds of toys from Trump. They'll pay me anything. They have nothing but money.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Are you at all concerned that the President's positions on Saudi Arabia have a -- are impacted by his own financial dealings with them?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
I think that when we're dealing with arms, that no personal financial dealings should have anything to do with the decision. And really not even the finances of the country. I think selling arms should have to deal solely with our national security. Not jobs. Not money. Nothing. And I really think that the war in Yemen that we have no vital national security interest. And not only that, I think our involvement in this terrible war is one of the things that engenders more terrorism. As more people die from starvation, as people pick up bomb fragments when a school bus is killed and on the bomb fragment it says, "Made in America," it creates more terrorism. So I think it's actually a risk to our national security to be involved with the Saudis, and we should not be aiding and abetting their bombing of civilian areas. Yemen's one of the poorest countries on the planet. 80 percent of their food comes through a port. Pompeo told them three weeks ago, almost a month ago now, "Quit bombing civilian ports." And what have the Saudis done? They've dropped 300 more bombs on civilian areas since then. So the Saudis are not good actors and they will not respond unless we quit selling them arms. But I would also expel the Saudi ambassador. The Saudi ambassador should go home. And that we can do overnight. That would send a strong message that we're displeased with what they're doing.
CHUCK TODD:
And finally, on the President's nomination of William Barr, it's been noted that he has an expansive view of executive power. And when I heard that, I thought, "Uh-oh. He may have trouble getting Rand Paul's vote for confirmation." Am I correct?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
Uh-oh is right. I'm concerned that he's been a big supporter of the Patriot Act, which lowered the standard for spying on Americans. And he even went so far as to say, you know, "The Patriot Act was pretty good, but we should go much further." I'm disturbed that he's been a big fan of taking people's property, civil asset forfeiture, without a conviction. Many poor people in our country have cash taken from them and then the government says, "Prove to us where you got the cash," and then you can get it back. But the burden is on the individual. It's a terrible thing called civil asset forfeiture. He's a big fan of that. I haven't made a decision yet on him. But I can tell you the first things that I've learned about him being for more surveillance of Americans is very, very troubling.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Rand Paul, Republican from Kentucky, as always, sir, thanks for coming on and sharing your views. Much appreciated.
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