NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Angus King
Interview
BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Senator Angus King of Maine, an Independent who caucuses with the Democrats, also part of the Intelligence Committee there. Senator King, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.
SEN. ANGUS KING:
Great to be with you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, obviously, a pretty eventful week. At the end of it, you have the Justice Department, if you will, in the Southern District of New York, pretty explicitly implicating the president in a crime. And Michael Cohen then adding to it, saying that his testimony, false testimony to Congress, was something that was known in advance by some folks in and around the president. What are your takeaways from this week's developments? And what should Congress now do?
SEN. ANGUS KING:
Well, I think you outlined, in your tape there, many of the questions that are raised by that -- by those filings. And they're really a separate series of filings. But the Cohen ones are, are pretty disturbing because the key phrase to me is, "directed by Individual One," which everyone knows is, is President Trump. Direct by implicates the president in a felony. Now, the president can have some defenses left. I think we should make it clear, he could claim it wasn't knowingly or willful. He didn't understand. It was his own money. He didn't think it was a violation of campaign finance laws. But it's still a pretty serious matter. But I gotta say, Chuck, I think the filing last week that should be most troubling to the White House weren't the ones made on Friday but the ones made with regard to General Flynn earlier in the week. Because number one, Robert Mueller felt that his cooperation has been of such an extent that he recommended no jail time, a kind of prosecutorial, prosecutorial pardon, if you will. Nineteen meetings with the special counsel and a lot of redacted pieces in the filing that was made last week. That's the one I think that really raises some, some very difficult questions that go to the heart of the question of whether there were relationships between the Trump campaign, President Trump, and the Russian government during the campaign in 2016. Because Flynn was, as they say in "Hamilton," in the room where it happens.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you know something we don't, given your access to intelligence, your access to Michael, Michael Flynn and, obviously, the -- own investigation that you're a part of in the Senate Intelligence Committee?
SEN. ANGUS KING:
I suspect I do know things that you don't. But I'm not -- everything I'm saying, and I'm glad you asked that question, is based on public reporting, not on any inside information that I have. For example, I don't know what was redacted from those Flynn documents. So yes, we've had a -- as you know, our committee is working quietly and diligently on many of these same issues. But everything that I'm sharing with you is based on public information and the filings that we've seen from these individuals.
CHUCK TODD:
Given that the government has -- is now saying, "the weight of the government is behind the charges that the president helped direct Michael Cohen to commit that crime" and, as you said, there are still -- a defense there for the president, he can claim he didn't know it was a crime or at least a breaking of a campaign-finance crime, do you believe there's already enough to start an impeachment inquiry? That doesn't mean he would be impeached, but an impeachment inquiry? In fact, is Congress almost obligated to open an inquiry at this point?
SEN. ANGUS KING:
I don't think so. I think, I think impeachment is entirely different from criminal prosecution. And, and as you know, the Justice Department made a decision, years ago in an opinion, that a sitting president could not and should not be indicted. And so whether the president will ever face criminal charges with regard to this matter is an open question. But impeachment, essentially, Chuck, is a, is a political issue. And I don't think that the, the -- well, let me, let me put it this way, I don't think that there's evidence yet available to the public where there would be, more or less, a consensus that this was an appropriate path. My concern is that, if impeachment is moved forward on the evidence that we have now, at least a third of the country would think it was just political revenge and, and a coup against the president. That wouldn't serve us well at all. The best way to solve a problem like this, to me, is elections.
CHUCK TODD:
But let me ask you this. The whole point of the impeachment process was if -- because of this idea that you can't necessarily hold a president to the same rule of law that you can hold other individuals, and that the one means to dealing when a president commits crimes, is through the impeachment process. If you don't go through it, isn't this Congress' way of saying, well, yes, he committed some crimes. But politically, it's uncomfortable. So you know, if you're popular enough, or if you have a big enough base, you can get away with committing crimes?
SEN. ANGUS KING:
Well, interestingly, I have to point out, parenthetically, that what you just articulated is exactly Brett Kavanaugh's position on this issue, when he was going through his confirmation hearing, that a president shouldn't be indicted or even investigated. Impeachment is the, is the remedy. There's a certain irony there, I think. But, you know, the standard in the Constitution is "high crimes and misdemeanors." It's a very high standard. And the Andrew Johnson impeachment --
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let me you stop you there. Is it? The words, "misdemeanor," I, I always feel as if, when people say it's a high standard, high crimes and misdemeanors.
SEN. ANGUS KING:
And misdemeanors.
CHUCK TODD:
That actually could -- that encompasses -- you could argue, that encompasses the entirety --
SEN. ANGUS KING:
Jaywalking.
CHUCK TODD:
Yes, exactly.
SEN. ANGUS KING:
I don't read it that way. And here's why: If you go back to Andrew Johnson's impeachment, the very first one, back in 1867. The danger, Chuck, is that we don't want to create a precedent where the unseats -- the Congress of one party unseats the president of another party for essentially political reasons. If that starts to happen, if that happens, then we've changed our system. We've become a kind of parliamentary system. Because you're overturning the will of the voters. So I'm a conservative when it comes to impeachment. I think it's a last resort and only when the evidence is clear of a really substantial legal violation.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you a couple of other things --
SEN. ANGUS KING:
We may get there, but we're not there now.
CHUCK TODD:
The president's nominee for attorney general, William Barr, who has served in that post before, in the Bush 41 administration, there is a report this morning from Yahoo News that the president initially reached out to Mr. Barr as a potential defense attorney in the Mueller probe. Is that enough, in your mind, to demand recusal of oversight of the Mueller probe, if he is attorney general?
SEN. ANGUS KING:
I want to hear more about, number one, that allegation. What were the details, but also, from Mr. Barr himself. I think his hearings will be very important. And I'd be surprised if the Senate confirms an individual who doesn't commit to protecting the integrity of Special Counsel Mueller. I, I think that's going to be a kind of litmus test for any nominee for attorney general. And we'll see how Mr. Barr handles those questions.
CHUCK TODD:
All right are you -- right now, are you in a wait-and-see mode? Or could you see yourself supporting Mr. Barr?
SEN. ANGUS KING:
I'm in a wait-and-see mode. I want to, I want to see the hearings. And I think it's very important to determine how he, how he answers the question about the integrity, as I say, of the Mueller investigation. Because -- and again, Chuck, the president himself should want the Mueller investigation to go to completion. It's the way to clear his name. If it's terminated prematurely through his attorney general or his actions, it'll leave a cloud over him for the rest of his time in office and, I think, could be very damaging to him politically. If he's as innocent as he says he is, he ought to want this thing to go to completion.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Senator King, the Independent, who caucuses with the Democrats, from Maine. Senator, thanks for coming on and sharing your views. Much appreciated.
SEN. ANGUS KING:
Thank you.
BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT
Source