CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Interview With Illinois Senator Richard Durbin

Interview

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BLITZER: We will see what happens in Argentina.

All right, Jim Acosta, thank you very much.

Joining us now, Senator Dick Durbin. He's a member of the Democratic leadership in the U.S. Senate. He serves on the Judiciary Committee as well.

Senator, thanks so much for joining us. We got lots to discuss.

[18:15:01]

But do you view these Roger Stone e-mails as an attempt to collude? Or is this evidence of collusion, formal collusion, in your eyes?

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D-IL), MINORITY WHIP: Well, it's a tangled web, Wolf.

And I think anyone who's trying to follow it and sort it out wonders really what's at the bottom of it. I will tell you this. There's one responsibility that Congress bears at this moment. And that's to make sure that the efforts of Robert Mueller continue unimpeded, unobstructed, and not diminished by the administration, either by the attorney general or others.

We have a bipartisan bill to achieve that. It should be part of our final work product in the next few weeks.

BLITZER: Will it be part of the effort to make sure the government doesn't shut down by the end of next week? Will you demand that that be included in any final legislation to keep the government operating?

DURBIN: Well, I think most agree, Democrats and Republicans, since it's a bipartisan bill, that it's not only important, but timely.

Senator McConnell, the Republican leader in the Senate, has said repeatedly, we see no need for it. And yet, as this investigation unfolds and the president continues to fight it, it's clear to me that we need the assurance this will continue to be an independent and credible investigation.

BLITZER: "The Guardian" newspaper is reporting that former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort met with the WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange, in the spring of 2016, around the same time that Manafort actually joined the Trump campaign.

So, if that's true, what new questions does that raise? Manafort, as you know, and Julian Assange, they're denying it.

DURBIN: Well, I can tell you this. I don't know about the authenticity of the assertions by "The Guardian" newspaper concerning these meetings by Manafort with Julian Assange.

But you raised the point earlier, Wolf, a very important one too, what an amazing coincidence, a WikiLeaks dump just minutes or hours after the "Access Hollywood" scandal was unfolding here in the United States.

For those of us who were observing it from afar, it seemed like much more than a coincidence. Was there coordination by anyone with this WikiLeaks leak and dump of information? That remains to be seen.

We have one theory that "The Guardian" has put forward today.

BLITZER: I'm sure Mueller and his team are looking into precisely that.

As you know, the White House press secretary, Sarah Sanders, says the president -- she says, flatly, the president wasn't involved in any collusion. But that's a change from saying that no one in the Trump campaign was involved.

How significant potentially is that shift?

DURBIN: Well, I think the president is narrowing his conversation as much as possible as those who were around him and part of his campaign effort are falling by the wayside.

Manafort, of course, is his former campaign manager. Roger Stone has been a confidant of his for many, many years. All of them, questions have been raised -- and even more when it comes to Manafort. And I think what the president is doing, what Sanders is doing for him is narrowing that umbrella of protection to a very narrow allegation, that it's just the president who was above this.

BLITZER: Why do you believe Paul Manafort would strike a plea deal with Robert Mueller and his team, only to break it and lie to the special counsel's team and the FBI, as alleged by Robert Mueller and his team?

DURBIN: There are a lot of theories, of course.

One of them is, he forgot, a memory issue. I think that's the least credible. I think there also is this looming concern that there's a pardon waiting for him in the White House when this is all over. I hope that's not true. Pardons in this circumstance would certainly raise serious questions about whether this president are any person is above the law in the United States.

BLITZER: Well, do you believe a pardon of Manafort by the president would be an admission of guilt by the president, considering Manafort's role in the campaign?

DURBIN: Yes, I would.

BLITZER: That's a serious, serious charge.

The White House, by the way, today said -- at least Sarah Sanders said she doesn't think there's any consideration of pardons right now. She was very specific on that.

How concerned, Senator, are you that a potential government shutdown would put the Mueller investigation on hold, at least for the days that there would be no funding for that investigation?

DURBIN: I don't know the internal workings of that investigation or whether to date any funding is critical. That's something we'd have to look into more carefully.

But I can tell you this. When it comes to a government shutdown, this is a decision in the hands of President Trump as to whether to shut down this government. He has a majority in the House, a majority in the United States Senate, Republican control of two branches of government.

Any shutdown is on his shoulders.

BLITZER: On a different subject, "The Guardian" newspaper also has a report today that the White House is preventing the CIA director, Gina Haspel, from briefing members of the U.S. Senate on the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, the Saudi journalist.

Do you know if she will be attending that briefing?

DURBIN: Well, I don't know who gave the order. But we were told that she would not be attending the briefing for members of Congress. That is extraordinary.

When we're dealing with the Khashoggi situation, the assertions by the State Department and intelligence agencies, her absence is obvious. And it's noted, and it raises a serious question as to whether this administration is giving us the whole truth.

[18:20:05]

BLITZER: And even that so-called Gang of Eight, the leadership, the bipartisan leadership of the House and Senate, the chairmen of the Intelligence Committees, even they have not had access to hearing directly from her? Is that what you're telling us?

DURBIN: What I'm telling you is, at the briefing that we are promised tomorrow, the general briefing for members of the United States Senate, we are told that Ms. Haspel will not be attending.

And I think that her absence raises serious questions about why we're not being told the whole story.

BLITZER: Because the CIA did have that conclusion that we all know about.

Let me ask you about another sensitive issue. You're spearheading this bipartisan criminal justice reform bill, the First Step Act, as it's called, which has President Trump's support. He says he supports it.

Today, Jared Kushner, his senior aide, his son-in-law -- he's been working on this issue with Democrats and Republicans -- he went to the Senate Republican policy lunch to try to move this bill along. If the president says he supports it, you support it, what's the problem? Why hasn't this come up for a vote?

DURBIN: Wolf, this is an extraordinary measure.

I was spearheading the last effort on sentencing reform eight years ago. My partner was an Alabama senator named Jeff Sessions, Durbin and Sessions. Now we have a more amazing coalition, not just President Trump endorsing it, but Chuck Grassley, my co-sponsor, along with Mike Lee and Cory Booker, and the support of the major police organizations, as well as the ACLU and others.

We have really reached a moment where we ought to move together on a bipartisan basis and solve a problem that we know faces our country. It's up to Senator McConnell. He will make the decision about whether this will be a priority in the closing days.

BLITZER: And if he doesn't do it in these closing days, you think he will do it in the new session? The Republicans will still be in the majority.

DURBIN: They will be in the majority. But I just tell you, the stars don't line up the way they have in this circumstance very often. Let's seize this opportunity and do something important this year.

BLITZER: Senator Durbin, thanks so much for joining us.

DURBIN: Thank you, too.

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