NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Patty Murray
Interview
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CHUCK TODD:
All right, joining me now with another perspective is Senator Patty Murray of Washington State, number three in Democratic leadership. Senator Murray, welcome to Meet the Press.
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
Great to be here, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
You have -- I remember covering your race and it was the reason you had stated for running was your reaction to the Anita Hill hearings. And I remember, at first, a lot of people didn't give you much of a chance and you've now been a United States Senator since 1992.
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
Correct.
CHUCK TODD:
You said this about the Republicans 27 years later: that "the Judiciary Committee is leading us down the exact same path and, in many ways, an even worse one." How are things worse?
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
Well, I think that one of the things that I remember from the Anita Hill hearings was the way she was treated by United States senators, that she was presumed that she was lying, that it was a fantasy, that she was making it up. That's how the questions came from the United States senators and she was never given the full opportunity to be believed from the start. I sense that again, as I hear a number of the comments, the, the majority leader saying, "We're going to plow right through this," like it's this petty, little thing over here. People saying, "Well, she's got the votes. We're just going to get her through. We've got to deal with this "hiccup.'" That kind of conversation is exactly what leads to many people in this country, women and men, saying "they don't get it," particularly now, in the #MeToo movement, where women have felt that they can speak out, that it doesn't have to be a hidden thing in their past, that they don't have to not tell anybody. The message that it's a "hiccup," or "We're going to plow through this," is exactly what they don't want to hear today.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, it's interesting that you word it that way. Because I'm curious of your reaction of this TV ad that's being run by Demand Justice, which is a group on the left that is opposing Judge Kavanaugh. I want to play for you this ad because it presumes him guilty. And I want to play it for you and see if, what you think of this. Take a look.
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CHUCK TODD:
I play it now, because what you just described were -- it was presuming her not to be telling the truth. This is presuming him to already be guilty. It seems as if we're in a bad situation, no matter your point of view.
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
Well, here's how I see it. For a very long time, in the history of this country, when women spoke out about allegations of sexual assault or abuse, they were presumed to be making it up or culturally not talking or told to be quiet. So I think it's really important, in this time, in this day, that we recognize when women speak out, that we should presume that they are innocent. Look, if someone says, "My car got stolen," you don't presume they're lying.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
But if someone says, "I was sexually abused," people today sometimes presume that they're making it up, that they're whatever. That, it should be a presumption of innocent and then have a fair process to go through to determine the truth.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think a hearing, where it's really his word, her word, we're not going to have anything else. We're not going to have any other witnesses, it appears. There's not going to be an F.B.I. investigation. That's a tough -- it's the same question I asked to Senator Perdue. You're a human being. How are you going to determine this? How do you determine who's telling the truth? Because it's going to be your own gut, is it not?
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
Well, the way the Senate Republicans have now set this up, that is what we're going to have is, do you believe her, or do you believe him? That is exactly why we have been pressing for an F.B.I. investigation that should only take a few days, so there are other facts out there, that there are other witnesses. In fact, I have said many times, that the Anita Hill hearing was a disaster, but they did have an F.B.I. investigation. They did have other witnesses. There were other ways to judge this. The Senate republicans have predetermined the outcome of that this will be a he says, she says by taking that away.
CHUCK TODD:
It -- this was interesting. But Anita Hill wrote the following on Wednesday and she sort of had a suggestion for the Judiciary Committee. She wrote, "Today, the public expects better from our government than what we got in 1991 That the Senate Judiciary Committee still lacks a protocol for vetting sexual harassment and assault claims that surface during a confirmation hearing suggests that the committee has learned little from the Thomas hearing, much less the more recent #MeToo movement." It is actually, what she's suggesting, there is no protocol, right, on the Judiciary Committee on how -- is there a protocol anywhere in the United States Senate of -- you guys deal with a lot of advice and consent when it comes to nominees, of when there is an allegation like this? Is there any protocol in the Senate for this?
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
Well, clearly not. And, and this is what I have been saying since the beginning of this, a week ago now, is that the Senate, Congress, failed the test in 1991 with Anita Hill, that they could deal with this kind of allegation. And they have to be able to deal with this kind of allegation if we're going to be putting people on the highest court of the land. And here we are today. How the Senate handles this and the Senate Republicans handle this will be a test of this time, of 2018, in the #MeToo movement. Can we do better? And I fear we are failing that, if we don't do it correctly.
CHUCK TODD:
If there is no F.B.I. investigation, I want to show you something that Senator Sheldon Whitehouse said to me and a, and a warning that he had for Republicans. Take a listen.
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CHUCK TODD:
He was, and I followed up with him, and he said, "Yes, if there is a Democratic Senate, that maybe, that this needs to be taken up again, if this doesn't feel fully investigated, and he's on the court." Do you support something like that?
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
Well, in fact, I understand that there could be allegations filed in Maryland still on this, if he was on the court. So it's important that we get this right. And I am really focused on that.
CHUCK TODD:
Should this affect his current judgeship?
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
His current judgeship? I, I don't know. I don't know the facts. I don't know the, the end of this. And certainly, that is something that is possible, but I, I don't know the facts yet. And we all would like it. That's why we want an F.B.I. investigation. That's why we want this done right. But here's what I do know.
CHUCK TODD:
Ok.
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
If the Senate plows through this, if it's a hiccup, if they don't do it right, there will be a tremendous backlash again. I was in the airport yesterday and a woman came up to me, an older woman, and she said, "I was told 40 years ago, when this happened to me, 'Don't say anything,' by my parents." What a horrible message to young girls today. What a horrible message to young men today, that they can get away with this. Let's get this right.
CHUCK TODD:
Would we be in this situation, this sort of point of, where it feels like we're never, we're, we're so divided, if the filibuster were still around?
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
Well, certainly, what the filibuster did, with a Supreme Court nominee forward, that there had to be more of a consensus, that we would have more --
CHUCK TODD:
A cooling saucer.
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
It would. And it would mean that we would have people on the highest court of this land that needed to have more broad partisan support.
CHUCK TODD:
Democrats get the majority back, are you going to advocate for changing, getting the, bringing the filibuster back?
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
You know, that's a really good question and one that, you know philosophically, I agree with. But I will tell you what. What if we did? What if Democrats put the filibuster proof back in, and turned around, the Republicans got the majority and took it away? I mean, we have to ask that question. And that, to me, is extremely troubling.
CHUCK TODD:
And welcome to our fractured democracy. Anyway, Senator Patty Murray, Democrat from Washington State, the other Washington, as you guys always like to remind us.
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
In that way.
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
Absolutely.
CHUCK TODD:
Thank you for coming on and sharing your views.
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
Thank you.
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