NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Adam Schiff

Interview

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CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. Paul Manafort's guilty plea and agreement to cooperate with Robert Mueller gives the special counsel a witness of potentially enormous value. Manafort has countless connections that Mueller can probe. For instance, he can ask about the infamous Trump Tower meeting with a Russian lawyer who said she had dirt on Hillary Clinton.

Why? Manafort was in the room where it happened. Then there's Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska, who's very close to Vladimir Putin and to whom Manafort apparently offered private briefings once he joined the Trump campaign. There's Manafort's long-time Russian business partner Konstantin Kilimnik, who's an alleged long-time Russian intelligence agent.

And under Manafort's leadership, there's the Trump campaign's mysterious gutting of a Republican platform amendment to send lethal weapons to Ukrainians fighting Russian forces. And of course, there's Manafort's first business partner in politics, Roger Stone, who appears to have talked to WikiLeaks about hacked emails.

So a lot of dots and maybe Mueller -- Manafort connects a bunch of them. Joining me now is the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Adam Schiff of California. Congressman Schiff, welcome back to Meet the Press.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

Thank you.

CHUCK TODD:

So let's start with Mueller --Manafort's cooperating. If you have a chance to ask him questions, what are the first series of questions you want to know and you assume Mr. Mueller wants to know?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

Well, Manafort is at the confluence of a number of pernicious interests. You've got the president's son trying to getting dirt from the Russians in Trump Tower, you've got the president himself asking the Russians for dirt on Hillary Clinton in a public statement. You've got Manafort trying to get money from this Russian oligarch, trying to get made whole.

You have the Russians who want to have a relationship with the Trump campaign, they want to help Trump get elected. All those interests converge with Paul Manafort. So basically, we want to know what can Manafort tell us about whether any of that was consummated. He's trying to get money, they're trying to get dirt, the Russians are trying to help Trump, was there a meeting of the minds? So that goes to the heart of the collusion or conspiracy issue.

CHUCK TODD:

Is it possible that with all this circumstantial evidence, it really is just a bunch of coincidences that Paul Manafort, in a desperate move, Donald Trump was afraid of Ted Cruz at the convention, stealing the nomination, he's told to hire this Manafort guy, doesn't do the background check, and those Russian connections just happen to be coincidence? What's the likelihood of that based on your investigation?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

Well, you know Manafort is a key person to help us unwind whether this is the most improbable string of unlikely coincidences, or whether this was an active conspiracy. And you know the bottom line is, Manafort knows, will Manafort cooperate? Will he tell Mueller all he knows or will he tell Mueller only what he thinks Mueller already knows? And the reality is, I think only he can tell us.

CHUCK TODD:

You're a former prosecutor. Would you have cut this deal that Mueller cut?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

Well, I wasn't in the room for the proffer. So I don't know what Manafort has to say. But I do know this, and this is I think a couple of the profound implications of this, this sends a message to anyone who is in Bob Mueller's crosshairs right now. You better get to the special counsel and make your deal now. Because anyone who gets indicted by Bob Mueller goes down. And the longer you wait to come clean, the worse deal you're going to get, the more time you're going to face. So I think that it obviated the need for these trials, which gives Mueller time to focus on other things. It gives him a key cooperating witness who has already seen what happens when you mess with Bob Mueller. I mean, he tried to essentially tamper with witnesses, he got caught, he went to jail. He better come clean.

CHUCK TODD:

He's been convicted already in one court of law. He has witness tampered, as you just brought up. Why should Mueller believe anything that Paul Man-- Paul Manafort seems to be a guy that will say whatever it takes to get out of a jam. That's including one of the allegations with Oleg Deripaska, "Oh jeez, I'm on a jam with him, maybe I can--" how do we not know that Manafort is just somebody that will tell whatever anybody is listening in that moment to get him out of a jam?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

You know, all of these cooperating witnesses are corrupt. Manafort certainly is. Manafort basically is the swamp. But also Flynn and also Gates. I mean, all of these people. And Cohen, if Cohen cooperates, all of these folks have pled guilty to lying and fraud. They're all tainted witnesses. And so as a prosecutor, you only rely on them to the extent you can corroborate them. But often, you can. If Paul Manafort says, "I spoke to Donald Trump about the Trump Tower meeting, I did it at this particular time and this particular phone call," and you go to the phone records and you find those phone records, that corroborates those statements. So you're not going to rely on the word alone. But you're going to rely on it when you can corroborate it.

CHUCK TODD:

Rudy Giuliani, the president's lawyer, has said that Manafort is not disqualified, that's the word he used, from a pardon. Rudy Giuliani also confirmed that Manafort's legal team and the president's legal team had a sharing agreement of sorts. What do you make of the pardon, of Rudy Giuliani still dangling the idea of a pardon out there?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

Well, clearly the Trump team is terrified about what Manafort may have to say.

CHUCK TODD:

That's how you view it? That this is about fear of Manafort?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Now they may think they know what Manafort has to say because he was part of that joint defense agreement. But they have to know that he may not have told them the full truth. And so they're terrified of what he has to say. Now I'm surprised, I think like you are, that we are where we are, that Manafort is cooperating.

CHUCK TODD:

You didn't expect him to flip?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

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I thought he would hold out for pardon. But two things I think changed his mind. The first is you've got the state prosecutions hanging out there. And one of the brilliant things of the Mueller team is getting Manafort to admit to all of these crimes, both state and federal crimes, so even if he got pardoned by the federal government, by Donald Trump, he gets prosecuted by numerous states, potentially. He goes away for a long time anyway. But also Paul Manafort had to conclude watching the whole Michael Cohen saga, that trust and loyalty with Trump run in one direction only. You're loyal to him, he's not loyal to you. And so I think that sealed the deal.

CHUCK TODD:

Final question for you. As a member of Congress, one thing Mueller has done is surfaced a lot of I think dirty and weird stuff that happens on K Street with the lobbying community. What is Congress actually going to do to try to actually clean up the swamp? Because they haven't done anything. You guys have threatened this for decades, to be honest.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

Well, you know this I think is going to be a core part of the Democratic agenda if we're able to take over the House, as looks increasingly likely.

CHUCK TODD:

You didn't do it the last time, though. In '06 you didn't clean up anything. And that was culture of corruption. What did we get? I mean, it didn't do anything.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

If we don't Chuck, if we don't, we won't stay in the majority. And I want us to stay in the majority. And so we need to go after this. We need to--

CHUCK TODD:

Because you failed the last time.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

We need to do the oversight. We need to do the oversight that this Congress has completely abdicated responsibility. We took steps when we had the majority before to clean up, to crack down. It's not like you can say it's "job accomplished." Because people find new and inventive ways to skirt the rules, to refill the swamp. But the concern I have right now is Donald Trump said he was going to drain the swamp. The only one draining the swamp right now is Bob Mueller. And the president is talking about pardoning the swamp. And we've got to make sure there's no further act of obstruction of justice.

CHUCK TODD:

All right, Adam Schiff, I'm going to leave it there. I think money and alligators always find a way in a swamp.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

Yes, they do.

CHUCK TODD:

Anyway, Democrat from California, thanks for coming on and sharing your views, sir. Much appreciated. Joining me now for another perspective is Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School Professor Emeritus. He's author of a new book, The Case Against Impeaching Trump. Mr. -- Professor Dershowitz, always good to have you on.

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