MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Adam Schiff

Interview

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MADDOW: Today, President Trump`s campaign chair Paul Manafort agreed to  cooperate fully, truthfully, completely and forthrightly with the  government and other law enforcement authorities identified by the  government in any and all matters as to which the government deems the  cooperation relevant. In case, there is any doubt about how much he needs  to cooperate here.

In the run-up to this big news today, there was a lot of fuzzy reporting  about how maybe Manafort was going to try to get a carve-out that would let  him talk about everything under the sun except President Trump. But nope,  there it is in black and white, in any and all matters. If special counsel  Robert Mueller wants Manafort to talk about Trump, Manafort is now  definitely on the hook to do that. That was not lost on the top Democrat  on the intelligence committee.

This is from Congressman Adam Schiff today in response to this news.  Quote, Manafort`s cooperation agreement is broad and requires him to  provide complete and truthful information in any and all matters which the  government deems relevant. He would be wise to do so as Mueller`s team has  already shown that it will not tolerate obstruction of justice.

Joining us now is Congressman Adam Schiff.

Congressman, thank you so much for your time tonight. Really appreciate  you being here.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: Thanks, Rachel.

MADDOW: So, you raised the prospect of obstruction of justice right away  today in response to this guilty plea in this cooperation agreement. In  what way is that a concern to you right now?

SCHIFF: Well, I raised that for a couple of reasons. First, Manafort  tried to essentially suborn perjury of other witnesses. He tried to  witness-tamper, and he today pled guilty to conspiring to do that, to  obstruct justice by tampering with witnesses.

And what he learned from that is Bob Mueller`s team is pretty damn good,  and he got caught. And he paid a big penalty for that in his guilty plea  today. So, he knows I think if he is less than truthful and less complete  and Bob Mueller finds out about it, he is going to pay a big price.

As Dan Goldman was saying, he had to admit not only to the universal  charges in that courthouse, but also to the ten charges that the jury hung  on which means if his cooperation turns out to be less than completely  truthful, that not only can be tried on those 10 counts, but his admissions  can be introduced, basically, its nail in the coffin. There won`t be  another hung jury on those ten counts.

So, I think he ought to have gotten the message loud and clear. But also,  if he has information pertinent to whether the president is obstructing  justice, Mueller is going to want to hear that, and also I think we have to  be concerned with the prospect you mentioned which is the president might  choose to obstruct justice and try to take away any incentive that Manafort  has to cooperate by pardoning him.

And if he were to do that, then in terms of this cooperation agreement and  all the rest of that, that really goes away. The case goes away. There is  no repercussion for lack of cooperation if Manafort gets pardoned. So, I  don`t think we`re beyond that possibility.

MADDOW: If the president did issue that kind of a pardon for Mr. Manafort,  I think about the politics of this, and I think about accountability for  the president. I think about his susceptibility to impeachment. Paul  Manafort is not somebody who has been a rallying cry among the president`s  supporters, even his most rabid supporters in conservative media and on  Capitol Hill. Nobody is saying that Paul Manafort was the real hero here,  and he`s been railroaded and everything that he did was fine, and this was  a witch hunt where this innocent guy got caught up in it.

There hasn`t been that charge on it right at least yet. If the president  did pardon him and it looked transparently like the president was pardoning  him to stop Manafort from giving the special counsel evidence and testimony  that might implicate the president in crimes, do you think it`s possible  that Congress might look upon that as something that should be investigated  as a potential high crime and misdemeanor, that they would want to hold him  accountable for that? That there would be hearings?

SCHIFF: Well, I certainly think that Bob Mueller would consider it another  big piece of evidence that the president is obstructing justice. And it  becomes probably part of the report that Mueller likely presents to the  Department of Justice and Rod Rosenstein, that gets presented to Congress.  So, it would be yet another strong fact in favor of the president being  held accountable for obstruction of justice.

And I think if he goes down this road, it won`t be as you say because this  is this rallying cry among his base to help poor Paul Manafort but rather  because the president is motivated as he always is by naked self-interest.  Manafort was part of a joint defense agreement and they`d still be part of  a joint defense agreement with the Trump team. That means for the last  months or year, he`s been sharing information. The defense team presumably  knows much of what he has to say.

Now, they have to worry about what he has not told them, but they might  have tried to align their stories in terms of the meeting in Trump Tower.  So, they may be aware of things that Paul Manafort has to say that could  really incriminate the president. That would be one reason the president  might pardon him.

The last thing I mention, Rachel, which I think is very significant and if  Manafort does cooperate could be enormously helpful to Mueller and that is  at the same time the Russians are reaching out to the campaign in that  Trump Tower meeting and offering the Trump campaign help, dirt on Hillary  Clinton, Manafort is reaching out in the other direction to the Kremlin  through people like Oleg Deripaska, offering the Kremlin help, information  about the Trump campaign in exchange for money, money he thinks he`s owed  from Ukraine.

So, I would like to know, I think Bob Mueller would like to know, I think  the country would like to know what happened at that cross-section where  the campaign is reaching out to the Russians, the Russians reaching out to  the campaign, the campaign chairman is in a pivotal place to tell us what  happened to all those communications before, during and after the Trump  Tower meeting, before, during, and after those e-mails running back and  forth where he`s trying to be made whole for his work for Deripaska.

MADDOW: Congressman Schiff, the top Democratic member of the House 

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