CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview With Maine Senator Susan Collins

Interview

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BASH: Joining me now is Senator Susan Collins, Republican of Maine.

Senator, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.

You say that you wrestled with this decision for a long time. Was there ever a moment when you were actually thinking, I'm a no?

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R), MAINE: I was an undecided, because I felt that we needed to interview some of the witnesses that Professor Ford said were present that night at which she believes a sexual assault occurred.

And I was disturbed that they had not been interviewed by the FBI. Now, the committee staff had interviewed them and gotten very clear statements. So there was no corroboration.

But I pushed, along with Senators Jeff Flake and Lisa Murkowski, for the FBI to do an interview of those individuals.

BASH: As you were going through that week, and as you were learning information, and as you were hearing the allegations, was there ever a time when you thought, I can't vote for this guy?

COLLINS: Well, I was certainly undecided.

And after hearing Christine Ford's very compelling and painful testimony, I thought, Oh my goodness, he perhaps needs to withdraw. And -- but then when he came back with such a forceful denial, and the anger and anguish that he showed, and then the lack of corroboration, led me back to the fundamental issues that are fundamental to our legal system, a presumption of innocence and fairness.

BASH: And you talked about that in your Senate floor speech.

It was 44 minutes' long. It was incredibly detailed, very well- thought-out, not something that was written on the fly after a last- minute decision.

And I'm sure you've seen, just as I have, some of your critics are saying that that's proof that you were putting up an appearance of being undecided to placate Democrats and independents that make up a majority in your state of Maine.

COLLINS: Well, nothing could be further from the truth.

We have to remember that this hearing unfolded in two parts. In July and August and early September, I was focused on the judge's record, on his position on issues like Roe v. Wade, his judicial philosophy, whether he respected precedent, and that was my focus.

[09:05:02]

So after I'd had a two-hour interview with the judge, and seen the hearings, which were extensive, I felt that I was very likely to vote for him. And we were drafting the statement, and, indeed, all that detail in the statement, I think, shows that.

BASH: So that was done before the allegations?

COLLINS: Absolutely.

Then the allegations came forth and put the whole confirmation system in a tailspin. So, part of the speech was written prior to the allegations of sexual assault.

BASH: So, let's talk a little bit more about those allegations. On the Senate floor, you said -- quote -- "The facts presented do not mean that Professor Ford was not sexually assaulted that night or some other time."

But, as you remember, Ford was really clear, under oath, under pain of perjury, that she was 100 percent certain that it was Brett Kavanaugh who sexually assaulted her.

So, given the decision you made, do you not believe her?

COLLINS: Let me say this.

First of all, I found Dr. Ford's testimony to be heart-wrenching, painful, compelling, and I believe that she believes what she testified to. I don't think she was coming forth with a political opponent, although I do not think that she was treated well by those who breached her confidence.

But we also had case where Judge Kavanaugh came forward and said, I'm 100 percent certain that this did not happen.

So, here you have two people who are each 100 percent certain of what they're saying under pain of perjury.

So, then I had to look at the other evidence and was there corroborating evidence? And that's why I pushed hard for the FBI to do a supplemental background investigation. BASH: So, do you still think that it is possible that he did it; you

just don't have the proof to back that up?

COLLINS: I do not believe that Brett Kavanaugh was her assailant.

BASH: So...

COLLINS: I do believe that she was assaulted. I don't know by whom, and I'm not certain when, but I do not believe that he was the assailant.

BASH: So, people watching you, hearing you say that, you understand that they'll think that you're saying you don't believe her, that she -- I know you say that she believed that he was, but maybe she was wrong.

But if she said that under oath, that he said that under oath, you made a decision that he said is more valid than what she said.

COLLINS: In this country, we have a presumption of innocence.

And, as a matter of fairness, what I decided to use as a standard was the question of, is it more likely than not that Brett Kavanaugh assaulted Christine Ford? And there was no corroborating evidence that he did so.

Each of the people that Professor Ford said was present that night have testified under oath, both to the committee, through the declarations that they submitted, and to the FBI now that this -- that they have no memory of this happening. And that includes Dr. Ford's best friend.

BASH: So -- and I'm sure you heard this from people who have experienced these assaults -- that it is possible -- and it's happened before -- that the person who is the victim remembers very clearly, because they were assaulted, and especially when you're talking about 36 years ago, it's not unusual for people who were apparently at a party as teenagers, they just don't remember because it was unremarkable.

Is that possible?

COLLINS: I really don't think that is possible.

When Christine Ford testified that she ran down the stairs and out the door, surely, her best friend who was there would have followed her and asked her what was wrong. Nobody's come forward to say, I'm the one who gave you a ride home, or I was the other person at the party.

I'm -- I'm not saying that she was not sexually assaulted. I believe that she was and that that horrible experience has upended her life.

But it does not mean that Brett Kavanaugh was her assailant.

BASH: So, you mentioned -- what you just said is also something that you said on the Senate floor, that there was no corroborating witness or somebody to say, I drove her home or I saw her leave.

And President Trump said virtually the same thing the other night, that she doesn't remember key details about where the party was and how she got home.

[09:10:07]

You said that, when he was talking about that, he was plain wrong.

What's -- tell me what the difference is.

COLLINS: Well, I think there's a big difference.

BASH: Yes.

COLLINS: I felt that the president was not respectful to Dr. Ford.

I had always been respectful toward her. I'm the one who pushed for a hearing where she could, once her identity was compromised, which was a terrible thing, and not what she wanted -- but once that happened and she was willing to come forward, I said she should be given a hearing.

BASH: So, it was the president's tone more than the words?

COLLINS: It was his tone, but also he's not involved in the advice- and-consent constitutional duties.

So, I believe he should have said nothing.

BASH: One of the major concerns that came up after the hearing was Brett Kavanaugh's temperament.

And I want you to listen to what your fellow Republican Lisa Murkowski had to say about that temperament in a floor speech on Friday night.

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BASH: She was giving voice to the fact that Kavanaugh was outwardly partisan, talking about the Clintons in his testimony, really went after once of your colleagues, Amy Klobuchar, which he apologized for later.

But do you have any concerns at all about Brett Kavanaugh's temperament?

COLLINS: Well, I put myself in his shoes.

He is coming forth and answering an allegation that includes that he was involved in gang-raping and doping girls. I mean, that is so devastating. And I think he reacted with anger and anguish as a father of two young girls, a 10-year-old and a 13-year-old.

I did believe that he should not have taken the shot at the Clintons and that in his questioning with certain senators, responding to their questions, particularly Amy Klobuchar, that he stepped over the line.

BASH: I want to ask you -- and you know this because you're witnessing this happening at your home, at your offices, in Washington and in Maine -- women saying that you betrayed women all across the country.

Planned Parenthood gave you an award last November for your work on protecting reproductive rights.

Here's what their political arm had to say about your vote: "This isn't just another vote. Senator Collins has made it clear that she can no longer call herself a woman's rights champion. She has sided with those who disbelieve, disrespect and even mock survivors. We deserve better. Women won't forget."

COLLINS: Well, first of all, I had never disregarded, disrespected or mocked survivors. That is just plain untrue.

And I would note that Planned Parenthood opposed three pro-choice justices just because they were nominated by Republican presidents, David Souter, Sandra Day O'Connor and Justice Kennedy. They said the same thing: Women will die.

BASH: Yes.

COLLINS: And this is just outrageous.

I have worked to preserve funding for Planned Parenthood over and over again, and I'm going to continue to do so.

BASH: And I understand that you're upset -- I can see that -- about Planned Parenthood.

But just generally to women who are saying this, who have no connection to Planned Parenthood, that feel that you betrayed them, what do you say to them?

COLLINS: I have met with so many groups of survivors.

I've talked to friends that, with one exception who confided in me years ago, I had no idea that they have been sexually assaulted. So, I have learned how pervasive this terrible problem is in our society.

And, clearly, we need to step up and do something about it, and every survivor deserves to be heard and respected.

This is a case where there is an incident that happened allegedly 36 years ago where there is no corroborating evidence. And it is not fair to Brett Kavanaugh for this to be disqualifying, in the absence of evidence. But that does mean that I don't believe that Dr. Ford was not a victim

of sexual assault. I think she is a survivor.

[09:15:07]

BASH: Beyond the allegations, of course, are the questions about Roe vs. Wade.

While you were giving your speech on the Senate floor, your friend, a top Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Dianne Feinstein tweeted the following: "When I asked Judge Kavanaugh about whether Roe and Casey were settled law and whether they were correctly decided, he refused to answer. He would only say these cases are entitled to respect."

How can you be or are you 100 percent, without a doubt, that Brett Kavanaugh will not overturn Roe v. Wade?

COLLINS: I do not believe that Brett Kavanaugh will overturn Roe v. Wade.

BASH: Because precedents are overturned all the time.

COLLINS: They aren't overturned all the time.

BASH: More than...

COLLINS: And listen to the standards that he put forth, again, in his conversations with me and also in the hearing.

He says, for a precedent, among established precedents like Roe, to be overturned, it would have to have been grievously wrong and deeply inconsistent.

He noted that Roe had been reaffirmed 19 years later by Planned Parenthood vs. Casey and that it was precedent on precedent.

He said it should be extremely rare that it'd be overturned. And it should be -- an example he gave...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: You have obviously full confidence?

COLLINS: I do.

BASH: One last question.

The political backlash, I don't have to tell you, has been fierce. We saw a tweet from Susan Rice saying that maybe she would run, the speaker of the house in Maine. A crowdfunding Web site has raised $2.6 million for whomever your opponent will be in 2020.

Could you lose the seat over your vote?

COLLINS: You know, I have to do what I think is right. And over the years, the people of Maine have trusted me to exercise my

best judgment. That's what I did in this case.

BASH: And you're prepared to lose your vote if...

COLLINS: I'm -- whatever the voters decide, but I'm going to do what I think is right. That's what I owe my constituents.

As far as Susan Rice is concerned, her family has a home in Maine, but they don't -- she doesn't live in the state of Maine. Everybody knows that.

But the irony is, back in 2009, when she was nominated to be ambassador of the U.N., she came to me, even though I did not know her back then at all, and pleaded with me to introduce her before the committee, which I was happy to do because her family had links to the state of Maine.

BASH: It sounds like the beginning of a campaign speech, but I won't -- I won't ask you.

Senator Collins, I know this has been an exhausting week. And I appreciate you coming and taking the time to speak with me.

COLLINS: Thank you very much, Dana.

BASH: Thank you.

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