CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview With Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar

Interview

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KLOBUCHAR: You're saying there's never been a case where you drank so much that you didn't remember what happened the night before, or part of what happened?

KAVANAUGH: It's -- you're asking about, you know, blackout. I don't know. Have you?

KLOBUCHAR: Could you answer the question, Judge? I just -- so you -- that's not happened? Is that your answer?

KAVANAUGH: Yes. And I'm curious if you have.

KLOBUCHAR: I have no drinking problem, Judge.

KAVANAUGH: Nor do I.

KLOBUCHAR: OK. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: One of the most notable personal moments in a hearing full of high emotion, anger and tears.

Judge Kavanaugh later apologized to Senator Klobuchar for that interaction. But the exchange has led some to question Kavanaugh's temperament for the Supreme Court.

Joining me now is Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. She is, of course, a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Senator, thanks for joining us.

He apologized for asking you that question. KLOBUCHAR: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: But do you agree with some of your colleagues who say that the fact that he made that comment to you, and his general tone and tenor and demeanor at the hearing, demonstrated a lack of judicial temperament?

KLOBUCHAR: I was really stunned by how he acted at that hearing.

This is a -- basically a job interview for the highest court of the land. And all I was trying to get at are some of the issues you were discussing with Kellyanne Conway. And that is that everyone has said that they respected Dr. Ford for coming forward, that her testimony was compelling and credible.

Well, both accounts can't be true. And so one idea here is that he simply was drinking more than he was saying over this time period, and that he didn't remember what happened.

And so I was just simply trying to get at that and really couching it in the fact that I had alcoholism in my own family. My dad is 90 now, struggled with it throughout his life, and finally got treatment and is sober and got help from A.A.

[09:25:04]

And so I was actually trying to get at the truth. And so that's why I was stunned by how he answered it. But then, of course, he later apologized.

TAPPER: Do you think that he was telling the truth when he said that he has never had any memory loss after a night of drinking?

KLOBUCHAR: It doesn't quite make sense to me, because, first of all, you have these other people from parts of his life who have said that he was belligerent when he was drunk and other things.

Now, they have not been interviewed by the FBI. And so that was my hope and why, when he apologized, I said, look, I just want to see an FBI investigation here. We know the she passed a polygraph test, which, while not admissible in regular court, is used all the time for FBI, for CIA, for Defense Department.

And she passed it with flying colors. So, these are things that the FBI could look as they evaluated the credibility of the witness.

TAPPER: Are you confident -- you just heard Kellyanne Conway say the FBI can investigate whatever they want to investigate. Do you -- are you confident that the FBI will be able to explore everything they want to, including, if they are interested, the Julie Swetnick allegations, including whether or not he was honest to the Senate Judiciary Committee about his drinking?

KLOBUCHAR: Well, based on some of the reports that we have seen this weekend, I'm very concerned about this, because the White House should not be allowed to micromanage an FBI investigation. TAPPER: She says they're not. Kellyanne said they're not.

KLOBUCHAR: I know.

And there was one thing she did say, and that is that the hardworking men and women of the FBI should be able to do their jobs. And on that, I agree.

But what we are hearing are reports that they're somehow trying to limit this to a few witnesses or tell them what they should do.

And while the White House decides who to nominate, and then that person is submitted to a background check, I have never heard that the White House, either under this president or other presidents, is saying, well, you can't interview this person, you can't look at this time period, you can only look at these people from one side of the street from when they were growing up.

I mean, come on. They can't do this.

TAPPER: Is there evidence that that -- beyond -- beyond the...

(CROSSTALK)

KLOBUCHAR: And so that's why we have to allow them to -- go ahead.

TAPPER: Beyond -- beyond the reports, do you know of evidence that that's the case?

Because Kellyanne Conway said that's not the case, that she doesn't think the White House is -- is telling the FBI, don't look into this, don't look into that, don't interview these witnesses.

KLOBUCHAR: Exactly. I am basing this on reports.

And then I'm listening to her interview, which was really interesting, when she said at the end that victims of sexual assault should be able to come forward and have their stories and their claims investigated.

And so many people, including Senator Grassley, the chairman, during the hearing respected -- said they respected Dr. Ford and talked about how brave she was.

And what I said at the hearing was, if you truly respect her, then you just can't say it. You have to follow up on the evidence. She actually said that she ran into Mark Judge, the other person, she said was in the room, at a Safeway. But she doesn't know the time period that he worked there. And she -- that was one thing that she specifically asked be followed up on, because she said he was so uncomfortable when she saw him.

He is, of course, a key witness and has not been interviewed by the FBI. But, according to reports, they plan to interview him.

So, I just want to see this be conducted in a fair, independent way, which Senator Flake has asked for. And, by the way, the people who have real leverage on this thing are

the three Republican senators who are still undecided. They have to make sure that this is a credible investigation from beginning to end.

TAPPER: So, Senator, you used to be a prosecutor, as you know.

As of now, with the evidence that we have, which is no corroborating evidence from the time, nobody who was at the party being able to back the story, which is not a refutation, but it's also not a corroboration, lots of questions about when and where this would have happened, we know that the prosecutor the Republicans brought in, Ms. Mitchell, has said that she would not have enough to take this case to even get a search warrant.

Do you disagree with that assessment, as a -- as a former prosecutor?

KLOBUCHAR: First of all, I want to make clear this isn't a criminal trial. And that -- again, Kellyanne and I agree on that. This wasn't a criminal trial.

This is a job interview. And, so, many of us have already decided, because of this nominee's expansive view of presidential power, that he doesn't belong on this court to be handpicked by a president who has continually undermined the FBI, said he wants to fire the -- everyone from the attorney general to the deputy attorney general.

[09:30:01]

We have issues with putting someone on the bench with those views.

TAPPER: Right.

KLOBUCHAR: And a number of us have voted -- said we're going to vote against him.

What this was about was is dignity of the court, the dignity of the Senate, that we get to the bottom of facts.

So, I have not looked at the evidence in that way, because I haven't been able to interview the witnesses that are there. But what I did find was that she seemed very compelling. She answered the questions with grace and dignity.

And all we want to do -- and this is why Senator Flake made what I considered a courageous move in standing up and saying, I can't stomach this anymore. This is beneath the dignity of this country. This is dividing the country. Let's at least have an impartial fact- finder -- and they better be impartial, and I believe they can be -- the FBI, follow the evidence.

TAPPER: Senator, you and the other Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee signed a letter to President Trump this week describing Julie Swetnick's allegations.

There were not a lot of questions asked about Swetnick's allegations in the hearing. Do you think her allegations that Kavanaugh was involved in facilitating women getting so drunk, they could then be gang-raped, do you think those allegations are credible?

KLOBUCHAR: I don't know, Jake. That's why I think she has to be interviewed by the FBI.

I haven't met her. I do believe in due process. And she did sign an affidavit. And I think it needs to be looked into. And that is all I will say, because we are not a detective agency in the U.S. Senate.

And that's why I have repeatedly made the case that, just like even in the Anita Hill hearing, George H.W. Bush reopened the background check investigation to look at those allegations. And numerous times, even in the last few months with nominees, those background checks have been opened.

That's why we made that strong case to our colleagues on the other side of the aisle. The issue is not, when did evidence come out? The issue is, what do you do when it comes out? The justice system is always messy. And the issue is, when you have power, what do you do with that power?

And I am very glad that Senator Flake saw this and called for this investigation. But now it is on him. And he worked with his friend Senator Coons.

TAPPER: Right.

KLOBUCHAR: And it was a good moment, when we got that reopened.

But now it's going to be on him to make sure this is a credible investigation.

TAPPER: But you're not saying -- you're not asserting anything one way or the other about Julie Swetnick's claims.

I want to ask you one last question, Senator. You said that you find it hard to believe -- I'm paraphrasing -- that Kavanaugh has never had any memory loss from drinking.

I want to ask you about when he was asked to explain some of the terms listed in his yearbook, which, of course, gets to state of mind, what kind of person he was during this era of his life, devil's triangle, Renate alumnus, terms that many believed referenced crass or sexist jokes.

He insisted they were much more innocent explanations. Did you believe that?

KLOBUCHAR: I -- I don't know what those terms meant at the time, but there is evidence that they meant other things that were much different than what he said.

And I think their way you get to the bottom of it, honestly, is you ask other people, his friends at the time, under oath or with the FBI, what those terms meant, and then you're able to assess -- much better assess his credibility. TAPPER: I guess the thing that is interesting to me about the

Kavanaugh debate, the Kavanaugh -- the allegations against him is, there are a lot of suspicions against him about whether or not he ever had memory loss, about whether or not he's not telling the truth or being completely forthcoming about what his yearbook jokes meant.

But it doesn't seem to me that any of that, necessarily, especially when it comes to the memory loss, can be proven. And if you can't prove that -- and I get this is not a court of law, but it is a court of public opinion.

And if you can't prove that he's not telling the truth, is that enough, even though I know you opposed him already based on policy grounds, is that enough to urge that his nomination be withdrawn, based on suspicion?

KLOBUCHAR: Again, I don't want to engage in hypotheticals here, because, in the end, this is really going to be the decision of Senator Flake and Senator Collins and Senator Murkowski, Senator Manchin, some of the senators that are still undecided.

They are going to have to look at the whole record here, at his demeanor. They're going to have to look at those decisions he made, like finding the net neutrality rules unconstitutional, or finding the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau unconstitutional, his views of executive power, his views, for Senator Murkowski, on Native American rights.

TAPPER: Right.

KLOBUCHAR: His views on what happened here, and was he telling the truth or not?

[09:35:01]

And just for the country, a number of us said, whether we supported him or not, at least give them those facts as they make a decision on who they want to serve on the highest court of the land.

TAPPER: Senator Amy Klobuchar, Democrat of Minnesota, thanks so much for joining us today. We appreciate it.

KLOBUCHAR: Thank you, Jake. It was great to be on.

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