CNN "Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees" - Transcript: Interview with Senator Kristen Gillibrand of New York
Interview
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COOPER: Let's get perspective from one of the senators who may get to vote on Judge Kavanaugh. I spoke with New York Democrat Kirsten Gillibrand just moments ago. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Senator, first of all, I want to get your reaction to what Judge Kavanaugh said tonight because this is the first time, obviously, we've heard him defend himself publicly.
SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D), NEW YORK: Well, a Fox News interview is not the same as an FBI interview, and if he's willing to talk to Fox News about his views, I don't understand why he's unwilling to talk to the FBI so they can do a proper investigation. He said over and over again, he wants a fair hearing. Well, a fair hearing means you have an FBI that investigates the facts, establishes a set of facts, that interviews not only Kavanaugh but corroborating witnesses and then have this hearing where it's not a he said/ she said scenario, but a scenario where you do have people who have knowledge of these events. I'd like to hear Mark Judge testify under oath, not only the FBI but any hearing. I'd also like to hear from the therapist, have her produce her notes, from Dr. Blasey Ford's husband, from her friend, and other corroborating witnesses with the second allegation.
COOPER: At this point, it doesn't seem like any of those things are going to happen, certainly. No FBI further background investigation. No other potential witnesses or potential testimony.
Do you think that by doing this interview, it gives Judge Kavanaugh some sort of an advantage going into Thursday, putting his side of the story out there first?
GILLIBRAND: No. He's entitled to tell his story, but he kept asking for a fair hearing, and the only way to guarantee a fair hearing is for the FBI to do a thorough background check, which now is not a complete background check because there's two allegations that have arisen since they finished it. Second, the only way for a fair hearing is if you do call other witnesses who have knowledge of these accusations.
The minimum that was done with Anita Hill isn't even being done here. They had an FBI investigation in that hearing, and they had over 20 witnesses to tell their version of events. And so, honestly, I don't understand how he could say to the American people he wants a fair hearing, but then not actually be interviewed by the FBI. A Fox News interview is not the same thing.
COOPER: I want to play a short clip from the interview and just have you respond.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS HOST: When you hear senators who are on the committee, Senator Mazie Hirono, and then you hear from others, you know, the New York senator, Gillibrand, she says, I believe this woman. I believe all of them. They're credible. And we all have to believe them.
When you hear United States senators who are making judgments, final judgments, what does that make you think about the presumption of innocence in this country?
JUDGE KAVANAUGH: In America, we have fairness. We hear from both sides. I've spent my life in the judiciary, in our judicial system. And part of the judicial system, as I've said during my first -- my hearing, was process protects you. That's what judges believe. That's what our system is built on, the rule of law about fair process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Since you were referenced, I wanted you to be able to respond.
GILLIBRAND: I've heard from both sides, and I believe Dr. Blasey Ford and I believe Ms. Ramirez. Both of their stories are credible, unlike his. Where he wouldn't actually answer the question or say why he wouldn't be interviewed by the FBI. That's not the response of someone who wants to plead his innocence.
I believe both of these women because there are corroborating witnesses who have testimony that is relevant to these accusations.
[20:05:02] Dr. Blasey Ford told her therapist five years ago, and her husband, she told a friend a year ago. She told a reporter before Kavanaugh was named. She's already submitted to a lie detector test and she's asking the FBI to do the investigation. That, to me, is credible. Those are the hallmarks of truth.
And then you have all this other information that's been divulged by Mark Judge about his heavy drinking, about the books, about what Judge Kavanaugh wrote in his own yearbook. I would like questions to be asked about these very issues because these are relevant facts of the time that the FBI is not investigating.
COOPER: Is it relevant that Professor Ford did not tell anybody contemporaneously or even for years afterward?
GILLIBRAND: Well, Anderson, if you know anything about the history of trauma, this is normal. This is exactly what happens. If you undergo this kind of traumatic event as a teenager, as a child, rarely are you going to tell your parents because you'll fear you'll get in trouble, you'll fear that you will be blamed. You feel guilty, you feel badly, you feel like you did something wrong.
And so, oftentimes they will certainly not tell their parents and may not tell anyone for years, even decades. That is the hallmark of truth in a sexual assault survivor. And this hearing should also include experts, to inform the many senators who may not have any knowledge about how trauma affects a witness and why these things come out over time.
COOPER: Majority Leader McConnell today had very harsh words for how Democrats have handled this given they knew about, or some knew about these Ford allegations for weeks. Should your Democratic colleagues have handled this differently? Could that have avoided this showdown in the final days we're seeing now? GILLIBRAND: I don't see how. You have a witness who has recently
come forward as most recently as yesterday. You have another witness who came forward last week. You have women who are telling these stories about what happened to them, and credibly accusing Judge Kavanaugh of violent behavior, of sexual assault, of behavior that is disqualifying.
COOPER: But Senator Feinstein did know about Professor Ford earlier.
GILLIBRAND: Yes, Professor Ford very specifically asked to keep her name anonymous and she did not want to disclose her identity. She just wanted Senator Feinstein to be aware because she was concerned. But when her name started to be leaked and other people were telling her story, she decided to tell her story herself. And that is her right.
So there was nothing that could have been done before this time because she chose to be anonymous.
COOPER: You mentioned the new allegations by Deborah Ramirez. Should Judge Kavanaugh be questioned about those claims on Thursday considering she, as of now, will not be at the hearing to provide her account of what she says happened?
GILLIBRAND: Deborah Ramirez, again, has asked the FBI to investigate her allegations from the "New Yorker" piece. You have a witness from "The Times" saying he's 100 percent sure that he learned about the relevant facts of this incident the same day or the day after. So, you have a corroborating witness.
Those witnesses should be called. They should be allowed to testify. Deborah Ramirez should be allowed to be heard. Again, she's asking for the facts to be developed by a nonpartisan professional investigative body, the FBI, and what does the White House have to hide? What does Judge Kavanaugh have to hide? Why will the Senate Republicans not allow a fair process? One that was even followed in the Anita Hill hearings which are largely considered to be low moments of the U.S. Senate.
And so, it's shocking to me that they're unwilling to do the basics, to have a fair hearing, to get not only corroborating witnesses to testify, to have Mark Judge testify under oath and to allow both of these witnesses to be heard.
COOPER: Senator Gillibrand, appreciate your time. Thank you.
GILLIBRAND: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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