CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL)

Interview

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BLITZER: All right, let's get some more on all of this, including the op-ed published anonymously in "The New York Times" by a senior administration official.

We're joined by Senator Dick Durbin. He's a member of the Democratic leadership. He serves on the Senate Judiciary Committee. Senator Durbin, thanks so much for joining us.

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: Good to be with you, Wolf.

BLITZER: How shocking is it to you that a senior member of the Trump administration would write this article and outline the extensive efforts this person says is happening inside the Trump administration right now to undermine President Trump?

DURBIN: Many of us are hoping that there are steady hands in the White House and throughout this administration that will stop this president, if he does something that is really not in the best interests of the United States.

I am surprised that there's a declaration, even by an anonymous source. It must be somewhat reliable if "The New York Times" is republic it. But it's an indication to me how serious this is.

They call themselves the steady state as opposed to the secret state. But it basically says that when it comes to this president, it's like the basic rule that parents follow. Don't leave sharp objects near small children. BLITZER: This person writes that the Trump cabinet, or at least some

members of the Trump cabinet, were so concerned by what this person describes as the president's instability that they considered invoking the 25th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution to try to remove him from office. What's your reaction to that?

DURBIN: Well, it's almost tragicomic, except if you consider the possibilities here. We have a president who is commander in chief of the United States of America. He has the power to initiate a nuclear war. He's making foreign policy and military decisions every single day.

And when you read in Woodward's book, as I haven't read personally, but there have been references to it, or this article in "The New York Times," you basically have people who are snatching papers off of his desk for fear that he'll sign them. I mean, if that is the case, at the highest level of government in the United States of America, we're in a very perilous situation.

BLITZER: If the concerns are so great, does this anonymously-written article, from your perspective, Senator, go far enough to address these concerns?

DURBIN: Well, of course, it just alerts us to the reality in the White House. The president's instability, some of the erratic things he continues to do on a day-to-day basis are well-documented. The question is, how are the American people being protected under these circumstances?

I will tell you that among Democrats, even among some Republicans, in privacy, you know, we talk about some members of the administration we're counting on to make sure that there's a steady hand in place, a good mind, someone that will keep the president from doing some terrible things to this country.

BLITZER: It follows -- this article follows Bob Woodward's reporting that top White House staffers were so fearful of President Trump's impact on national security -- and you know this, you mentioned it -- that they would actually go into the Oval Office, steal documents from his desk, to prevent him from signing those orders. That is -- I haven't heard of anything like that. Have you ever heard anything like that?

DURBIN: Never. Never. And to think that it occurs under this administration is an indication of how dangerous this president can be.

And we don't have to rely on whispered secrets. We just read his tweets on a day-to-day basis. We know the workings of his mind. We know how he thinks. We know how he quickly reacts and overreacts. And I can imagine if you are in the White House, close to the president, and see him in action on a day-to-day basis, there's a genuine, real concern.

BLITZER: Take us behind the scenes. I know you speak with your Republican colleagues. Do you hear their fears, their concerns about all of this?

DURBIN: Sometimes. Seldom. They'll tell us that they're embarrassed by things the president has said and done. They think they're inconsistent with basic Republican principles.

But then after a moment, they quickly add, "But 85 percent of my Republicans back home would march over a cliff for this president." So they see the political reality, and the net result is the silence of the lambs. Very few senators speak out.

You just had one on the program, Lindsey Graham. I respect him very much. He's a good friend. But very few of them are willing to speak out candidly about what the president is saying and doing.

BLITZER: Well, with the Republicans who are speaking out are those that are not seeking re-election, by and large. Although a few of them, Lindsey Graham one of them, who's blunt on several of these issues.

All of this news comes, as you know, as the president is poised to get another Supreme Court justice confirmed. It looks like Brett Kavanaugh has got the votes. He only needs a simple majority. He needs 50 votes if it's a tie. Then, of course, the vice president will break that tie.

[18:40:09] What are your thoughts on how Brett Kavanaugh did in his testimony today?

DURBIN: Well, I can tell you that he avoided some of the tougher questions. Senator Blumenthal and others who really confronted him with the fact that his nomination by this president at this moment in history places a special burden on him. What will he do, if he's on the Supreme Court, and this president's case comes before the Supreme Court?

Now, that's several jumps ahead, but it's not an unreasonable question in light of what we're facing, what happened with the guilty pleas and the finding of guilt in the case of his campaign manager and attorney. I mean, these are the realities.

So try as he might, Justice Kavanaugh or Judge Kavanaugh cannot avoid the fact that the shadow of this investigation and the shadow of the criminal investigation that's going full force is really over his nomination hearing.

BLITZER: But he has a good reason why he doesn't want to speculate about what he might do if the president were to pardon himself or if the president ignored a subpoena from Mueller, the special counsel.

Because he might have to consider that, if it went all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court, like the other justices, the eight justices who sit on the Supreme Court right now. They didn't want to talk about potential hypothetical cases that could reach that level. So he has a good excuse, right?

DURBIN: He does. He does. But those unanswered questions are haunting his nomination. There's a simple fact. It's not just the president said, "I'll have a litmus test of repealing Roe v. Wade and the Affordable Care Act and let people with pre-existing conditions suffer the consequences."

It is also the looming possibility that there'll be a case before the Supreme Court involving the criminal investigation of this president.

BLITZER: You know, you questioned Kavanaugh back in 2006 when he was nominated for his position as a judge on the D.C. Federal Appeals Court. And in 2007, you told NPR that you felt, quote, "perilously close" to being lied to by Kavanaugh when he said he wasn't involved in questions about detained combatants.

Today he told you that answer was 100 percent accurate. Do you feel that his testimony today was 100 percent accurate?

DURBIN: No, I don't. Quite honestly, he gave me an answer which doesn't square with the evidence. I cited three specific examples where he had been involved in the formation of policy when it came to the detention of combatants and suspects. Three specific examples that are public already. And yet, the fact that they contradict -- those examples contradict his express statement didn't change his position again today.

Unfortunately, we only have 10 percent of the documents from his public service and none from this period of time when he was serving in the White House. So, had we been given the documentation, I'm sure there would be a different conclusion.

BLITZER: Yes, what he points out and what the Republicans point out is that the White House, the Justice Department, they make those kinds of decisions on executive privilege, attorney/client privilege, on occasion, what can be released, what can't be released. So that debate is clearly going to continue.

Bottom line, though, he looks like he's got the votes, right?

DURBIN: It's hard to say. And as Lindsey Graham noted to you, with Jon Kyl returning to the Senate, we're dealing with 51-49, an advantage, clearly, for the Republicans with this nomination.

I don't know -- I haven't counted our own side of the aisle to see exactly how many Democrats will vote for or against Judge Kavanaugh. But clearly, the numbers are on their side, as we go into the final week before the vote.

BLITZER: Senator Durbin, thanks so much for joining us.

DURBIN: Thanks, Wolf.

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