MSNBC "The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell" - Transcript: Russian Investigation
Interview
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O'DONNELL: We have breaking news just at this minute about that Senate staffer we were talking about earlier in the program with Rachel Maddow. That Senate staffer has now been indicted according to a press release from the United States attorney's office in the District of Columbia from the Justice Department.
The title of the press release says: Former U.S. Senate employee indicted on false statement charges. The long-time director of security for the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence is accused of lying to the FBI about repeated contacts with reporters. James A. Wolfe, 58, of Ellicott City, Maryland, was indicted by a federal grand jury on three counts of violating federal law at the time he made the alleged false statements to the FBI.
I want to go now to Congressman Adam Schiff of California. He is the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee.
And, Congressman Schiff, this shocking development literally occurred just during our commercial break. We were going to talk about this staffer whose name we only learned minutes before the show. But do you have any reaction to what we're learning tonight about these charges against this Senate Intelligence Committee staffer?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA), RANKING MEMBER, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: I don't know anything about the facts of it, Lawrence. I know only what I've seen in these very recent public reports about his position within the Senate. And it's a very key and important position. We have a like responsibility on the House Intelligence Committee.
And so these charges obviously very serious. Leaks are a serious problem. But the attacks on the press are also a serious problem also with this administration.
And I have to hope with extraordinary use of either national security letter or subpoena or whatever device the Justice Department used to seize the reporter's records that they followed all the proper procedures that this was a remedy of last resort, because that's another problem we've seen in this administration, in addition to the leaks, is this whole scale attack on the press.
O'DONNELL: Well, in addition to the administration, though, Congressman, it seems the United States Senate itself has been a party on this investigation, because that resolution that we all reported that the Senate voted on unanimously last night without knowing what it was about. It was just a matter of a resolution saying that the Senate Intelligence Committee could and should cooperate with the Justice Department on an investigation. And at that point it was an unknown investigation.
On the assumption that it was this investigation -- and, in fact, we don't know that -- but on the assumption that it was, then this investigation would have the complete support of the United States Senate, not necessarily the particulars of subpoenaing information from reporters?
SCHIFF: That's exactly right. The Senate committee, I have to expect, and again, I'm not speaking on the basis of first-hand knowledge about this, but I can tell you on the House Intelligence Committee, if we were approached by the Justice Department and they had evidence that one on our committee was responsible for leaking classified information, we'd want to cooperate with that investigation also.
I don't know the particulars about what other efforts the Justice Department may have gone through before seeking phone records from a reporter, and I don't know whether my Senate colleagues had that information either. But certainly the Senate committee would want to help the justice department in any way that was required.
O'DONNELL: And we also, on this story, have no idea what time frame is involved in the offenses. Apparently, he's -- they're saying that he leaked information to reporters that was classified information, but this is a staffer who's been there 31 years. And so, it could have been last year or it could have been several years before that.
That's not something we know at this point.
SCHIFF: No, and again, just judging from the public reports, I think one of the reports stated that the phone records that were sought went back for a period of years. Now, that's very extraordinary. If you're going to follow the Department of Justice procedures I imagine you try everything else first and then your request is only as broad as it needs to be, so it would be a narrowed tailored request for phone records.
So, if they indeed looked for phone records for years or e-mails for years, that says they're looking for a long-term pattern of conduct. And they would have had, I expect, significant evidence to lead them to seek such a broad request for that kind of discovery.
O'DONNELL: The Justice Department report says James Wolfe was entrusted to classified, secret and top secret information provided by the executive branch, including the U.S. intelligence community. And it says Wolfe is alleged to have lied to FBI agents in December of 2017 about his repeated contacts with three reporters, including through his use of encrypted messaging applications.
Now, the James -- James Wolfe, who's been there for 31 years, that may be someone you know. I know the two committees in the House and Senate don't have much interactions but occasionally, is James Wolfe a Senate staffer on the Intelligence Committee who you have met?
SCHIFF: I don't know, Lawrence. I've certainly been in the Senate SCIF before and encountered some of the Senate staff, but I don't know that person by name. So, I really couldn't tell you whether I've met him.
O'DONNELL: Yes. And just for people who don't know how this works, that's a very common situation between House and Senate. There's very little interaction between the committees and certainly less interaction between the Senate committee staff and members of the House committee.
Congressman Schiff, there are -- there are other developments on your committee. You released today, publicly, released a letter you sent to Devin Nunes a couple weeks ago, asking for something like this, asking that the committee assist in or refer to the Justice Department for possible investigation for perjury, witnesses who appeared before your committee. So, that was your request to Devin Nunes to try to get the Justice Department to take a look at some of the testimony that's occurred in your committee.
Can you tell us why you released that letter publicly today?
SCHIFF: Well, for a couple reasons. Initially, when we began the investigation, we decided that the interviews should largely be conducted in closed session so that witnesses wouldn't be able to align their stories
in an effort to get their alibis together.
But because of the intense public interest we also recognized that eventually this testimony needed to be made public so we committed when the investigation was over we would make the transcripts public.
Well, the Republicans announced a month and a half ago as far as they were concerned the investigation was over. And so we said, OK. Well then in that case, let's release the transcripts. Now, the Republicans re-neg (ph) on their commitment. And I think they did so for a couple reasons. For one thing the transcript showed just how often the Republican majority acted as defense lawyers for the President rather than through investigators. How often the witnesses were invasive with us as well as some of the evidence we found on the issues of collusion and obstruction of justice.
But having re-neg (ph) on that, it's now important that at least these transcripts be given to the special counsel. He would have had access if they were made public. But since they weren't, and because we have good faith reasons to believe that witnesses may have committed perjury, they really need to be provide in the special counsel.
LAWRENCE O'DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: And do you -- it's possible now for the special counsel to simply subpoena these now that the special counsel reading about your letter, obviously, knows about it?
SCHIFF: Well, if they subpoenaed it, if they were forced to compel the House to provide information then you would essentially have a fight between two branches of government. Not unlike the fight that the GOP is trying to provoke with the justice department right now.
I wouldn't recommend that. I don't see why the majority would resist providing these materials to the special counsel, unless they want to protect some of the close associates of the President from prosecution. That would be, obviously, an illegitimate reason to do it. But it's hard I think for them to articulate why they would object to this. This is one of the reasons why we made it public. They have not responded to our requests. They have shown no signs of being willing to assist the special counsel so they should have to explain publicly why they are protecting people who may have committed perjury.
O'DONNELL: I want to get your reaction to speaker Ryan saying just the other day that when the President was talking about pardoning himself that no one is above the law. Speaker Ryan didn't even take a position on whether the President could pardon himself. But he did say that phrase, no one is above the law. And that brought out some very sharp criticism from the real hard-core Trump followers in the House representatives.
SCHIFF: Well, you know, this has been the pattern during the entire Trump administration. And that is the speaker has been asked to defend our institution, to defend the rule of law. He was asked, for example, when the President threatened to pull NBC's license because he didn't like its coverage, what he thought of that. And continually the speaker was unwilling to defend our system of checks and balances. Deep disappointment I think to all Americans who expected more from this speaker. So I'm not surprised he would avoid the question on whether the President could pardon himself.
And the sad thing is to the degree that the leadership in the House and Senate, like Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, are unwilling to confront the President, the President reads it as a green light. A lot of what the President does is a trial balloon. The announcement of these pardons and potential pardons, the claim he can pardon himself, to claim that he can obstruct justice and nobody can indict him and nobody can impeach him, all this is trial balloons for the President to press further, to come down harder on Bob Mueller, to potentially fire him, and sadly we get no push back from the GOP majority.
O'DONNELL: Congressman Adam Schiff, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.
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