MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Immigration

Interview

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MATTHEWS: Well, it`s getting hotter and hotter, this issue, and it is not going away.

NBC`s Julia Ainsley and Jonathan Swan of "Axios." Earlier today President Trump once again blamed democrats for the forced separations, tweeting Democrats are the problem. They don`t care about crime and want illegal immigrants no matter how bad they may be, to pour into and infest our country like MS-13. They can`t win on their terrible policies so they view them as potential voters.Well it should be noted the republicans control the Congress.Joining me right now is the Massachusetts Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren.
Senator, what -- if you were President, what would you do? What`s the solution to this mess on the border with these kids being separated? Help me out.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASS.: Oh come on. This isn`t even hard. This isn`t even hard. It is entirely up to the President of the United States. All he has to do right now is pick up the phone and say to Jeff Sessions, say to the Department of Homeland Security stop, and do not separate children from their parents. Do not rip babies out of the arms of their mothers, and we are done.

MATTHEWS: And so the -- the parents who are going on trial because they are applying for asylum, would the kids stay with them? How would that work?

WARREN: Sure, you can make it work. But look, you don`t have to prosecute them criminally. Let`s keep in mind what we are talking about here, are taking women who have been raped, who have been beaten, who fear for their lives, who flee to the United States asking for asylum and for the act of asking, the United States government, because of Donald Trump is ripping their children away from them. That is not who we are.

MATTHEWS: OK they cross -- we know the situation, they -- they come to a point of entry, fine. But if they come across the border illegally, across the border, which you know we have seen pictures of it, when they come across they are going to be detained for processing. They are going to be held for a while. There is a 20-day requirement that you have to release them after 20 days. Trump calls that catch and release, because if they wait out the 20 days, they get to stay in the United States, so there is no border (INAUDIBLE).

WARREN: Oh now come on.

MATTHEWS: Well tell me -- tell me how it works.

WARREN: No, no, no, come on. If you want to pick people up because they have entered illegally, then get them in front of a magistrate. Get them in front of a judge. We have a process for doing this. And if someone has a credible claim to make for amnesty, someone has a credible claim to make that they want asylum, then let them make the claim, but you don`t take their children away simply because they have asked.

MATTHEWS: What do you think of what -- you must have watched Secretary of Homeland Security Nielsen yesterday, do you think she should resign? Did you like that performance?

WARREN: No, I did not. I think she not only should resign, I think that before she has a chance to resign she should be fired.

MATTHEWS: Really?

WARREN: Look. Come on.

MATTHEWS: You don`t blame Trump, you blame her.

WARREN: No, what I`m saying is he should get rid of her. This is not helpful but all of this goes back to Donald Trump.

MATTHEWS: Let`s face it, you are -- you are a political person as well as a policy person. Trump is playing this like a banjo. You know what he is doing. He is revving up his base with this, the red hots on immigration attitude. He is playing it -- you know, he is going to play it in the election, so it`s not just her, it`s him.

WARREN: I actually don`t see it this way, Chris.

MATTHEWS: You don`t think he`s playing (INAUDIBLE) --.

WARREN: No, I`m going to say this differently. I think there are some things in America that go beyond politics. And Trump may think he is playing a political game here. But ultimately this one hits deep, where America lives, not just Democrats, America, Republican America, independent America, people who just don`t care about politics.

People who say this is not what America does, we do not put small children in cages. We do not separate the children from their parents.

MATTHEWS: Will this move the veto (ph) on Trump? Will this move people against him? Will people begin to see him as a bad guy now who liked him before?

WARREN: What -- what I care about is that people push Trump to stop this. That is where we need to be right now. And -- and it -- keeping in mind, this is not about legislation, this is not about anything else, this is appealing to the President of the United States, this is insisting as loudly as we can to the President of the United States. This is not who we are in America. He is taking America to a dark and ugly place. That`s not (INAUDIBLE).

MATTHEWS: Is there anything you as the senator can do? Is the Senate frozen out of the action here?

WARREN: You know, I think that this is about Trump and I can`t find it (INAUDIBLE) --.

MATTHEWS: You can`t pass legislation?

WARREN: It`s not a question of whether or not we could pass legislation over a long process. This is happening to children tonight, while you and I are sitting here. Trump could stop it before we get to the end of (INAUDIBLE) --.

MATTHEWS: OK. I want you to do it positively. I wrote this question out, what would -- should we do, if you were President, because that`s a legitimate question, when people come here from Central America with children and they come across the border illegally, how would you handle this as opposed to how the President`s handling of this?

WARREN: Then we would detain them, we would take them in front of a court, but we would not separate families. We just don`t.

MATTHEWS: And that`s doable under the law, even though they have the 20 day rule and all these other rules?

WARREN: I think we can do that if that`s what we want to do and put the resources into it.

MATTHEWS: Why is Trump doing this?

WARREN: I don`t know. I can`t get inside Donald Trump`s head. And I don`t want to get inside Donald Trump`s (INAUDIBLE).

MATTHEWS: You think he is irrational?

WARREN: Look, it doesn`t matter. Maybe whatever it is he is doing, it`s not for me to speculate, the point is it`s wrong. And anything (INAUDIBLE) --.

MATTHEWS: OK, Jeff Sessions is calling this policy --.

WARREN: No, Chris, anything that takes us away from that conversation.

MATTHEWS: OK, I`m with you on this, I just want to know how you would --.

(CROSS TALK)

WARREN: -- they just have to state that (INAUDIBLE) --.

MATTHEWS: You say, Elizabeth, you said that Kirstjen Nielsen should go. She should be fired. What about Jeff Sessions, her boss -- not her boss, but the one who really set this policy out? He said he wants zero tolerance, he`s the boss in this policy. He set it out. And she has had to follow it.

WARREN: No, Donald Trump is the boss. Let`s be clear. It`s Donald Trump, this is on Donald Trump. He owns it. He owns it.

MATTHEWS: So she goes but Jeff Sessions stays?

WARREN: We are done.

MATTHEWS: How about Jeff Sessions, should he go?

WARREN: You know, he has got a lot going on right now.

MATTHEWS: Yes. I know, because he is protecting the special prosecutor.

WARREN: Exactly. He has got a lot going on right now.

(CROSS TALK)

MATTHEWS: So this is the weird politics that Jeff Sessions, who is a nasty anti-immigrant guy.

WARREN: No kidding.

MATTHEWS: We know that. You know that. And at the same time he is sort of keeping things together on the prosecution of the Russia probe.

WARREN: But let me -- let me make --.

MATTHEWS: He is. You just said that.

WARREN: I know that. Let me make the coherent point around this, though. And that is the sorts of things that the homeland security secretary got out and defended yesterday, come on. This is -- this is not what we should be doing for homeland security, but all of it is back to Donald Trump and the tip is to stay on Donald Trump.
If Donald Trump does not want children taken away from their mothers at the borders, he fixes that and he fixes it now. And if he fails to do that, the blame does not fall on anyone else, the blame falls squarely on Donald Trump.

MATTHEWS: Does the Republican Party share that blame for backing him?

WARREN: Everyone in America who does not speak out shares that blame. This is not politics.

MATTHEWS: Thank you. Well said.

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