MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Immigration

Interview

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MATTHEWS: For more, I'm joined by Wisconsin Democratic Senator Tammy Baldwin.

Senator, a couple things. It seems like the difference between the two parties -- and there is a difference -- is, they want to treat people who come across the border even as refugees as criminals. They want to put them on trial, separate from the kids, and treat them like they just stole a car or something, like regular criminals. That's how they treat them, not as people seeking a better life.

I think Democrats have a more nuanced view of people coming into this country for a better life, and especially those trying to escape hell on earth where they came from.

SEN. TAMMY BALDWIN (D), WISCONSIN: Exactly. Exactly.

And think about the fact that many, many of them are -- the murder capital of the world is one of the places where people are fleeing to come to our…

MATTHEWS: Is that Guatemala?

BALDWIN: Yes.

And, you know, where -- when small children risk losing their lives, unheard of violence, you can understand why people take this dangerous, dangerous trek. But that doesn't mean, at the other end, they should be met with this despicable policy.

MATTHEWS: What would you do if you could write the law? Parents who cross the border without authorization, bringing children with them, what should we do?

BALDWIN: Keep them together.

MATTHEWS: And don't put them on trial?

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: So…

MATTHEWS: Don't put them in jail?

BALDWIN: Well, wait. If they're coming here for asylum or for refugee status, there is a hearing that will take place for them to be able to present evidence that they ought to be asylees and come into our country.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: And their children can stay with them in that situation, in that process?

BALDWIN: Absolutely, they should. I mean, it's just inhumane that they don't.

I agree with those who are saying that the children are being used as pawns, pawns for a wall, pawns for whatever the president is seeking. And this is not the first time. I mean, think about, that was happening with the dreamers.

MATTHEWS: Is that what you hear, Senator?

BALDWIN: But it also happened with…

MATTHEWS: That he thinks he can get the wall by using these kids as like kidnapees, like holding on? We will keep these kids here until you agree to put a wall up?

BALDWIN: You know, certainly, he's behaved like that before in the DREAM Act context.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

BALDWIN: And even if you think about using children as pawns, think about the CHIP legislation that was held up long for -- for…

MATTHEWS: I know, for children's health.

BALDWIN: Yes, but in a larger budget debate, where he was fighting for his wall.

This is something that the president and the president alone needs to change. He can do it tonight, if he's listening.

MATTHEWS: Well, meanwhile, Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen -- Kirstjen Nielsen said this today:

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MATTHEWS: I'm joined right now by Texas Democratic Congressman Joaquin Castro.
This afternoon, he visited two facilities down in Brownsville, Texas, where some of the children are being held.
I don't think it is the press vs. the president right now. I think it's those cries from those kids. They want the daddy, their pappy.

Congressman?

REP. JOAQUIN CASTRO (D), TEXAS: Well, that's right, Chris.

And we had an opportunity today to see the youngest victims of Donald Trump's brutal policy of separating young kids from their families. We saw what was called an infant room.

And one of the young infants in that room is 8 months old. His name is Roger. And he had been separated from his family for over a month. And there was another girl that was about a year-old, and she had been separated from her parents also.

And these kids, their parents are nowhere to be found. And it was astonishing to listen to the secretary of homeland security basically deny reality. If you watched her today, she looked like a zombie, denying reality on behalf of the president.

There is a brutal policy, and it has to stop.

MATTHEWS: Well, she said two different things which clashed into each other.

One was, this is policy. We want to get tough. This is zero tolerance. The other one was, oh, if you want to change it, just do it. It's up to Congress. We would like you to do that.

I mean, she wants you to change the policy she's just invested in. It doesn't make logical sense, whatever your emotions are on this thing.

CASTRO: The president has the absolute ability instantaneously to stop separating families.

So, he has the ability to do this on his own. He is using this as leverage, basically -- basically, engaging in state-sponsored child abuse, to use that as leverage to get Democrats and others in Congress to vote for
a border wall.

He is treating these kids and behaving as though this is some kind of real estate deal, where you put pressure on the other person by raising rents or negotiating over square footage or something. And he's doing that with the lives of kids.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about something Jacob Soboroff just reported to us, that, apparently, they're letting the press see the older boys, but not the younger boys or any of the young women or the girls.

Are you able to ask to see -- as a member of Congress, can ask you to see how they're treating the young boys and how they're treating the girls? Are you able to get through what they don't let the press see?

CASTRO: Well, we did. And at one of the facilities, we did see some young girls. But, to be honest, their answer was still not very clear as to where all the girls are.

Now, that said, there are many contractors. This facility was run by Southwest Keys. There are many contractors that do this and there are many facilities. So, it's also possible that many of the girls were not at these two facilities.

MATTHEWS: Sounds unlikely.

Thank you so much, Senator Tammy -- Tammy -- what is your -- Tammy Baldwin, of course. Thank you, sitting here. You missed the chance.

Joaquin Castro, for giving us that on-site report from down in Brownsville, thank you, sir.

Up next: Roger Stone -- you know him -- previously denied, of course, having met with Russians during the 2016 presidential campaign. Now he and another Trump adviser, Michael Caputo, say they were in contact with a Russian promising dirt on Hillary.

They all meet with these guys who have dirt. Michael Caputo joins me after the break.

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.

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