MSNBC "All in with Chris Hayes" - Transcript: Immigration

Interview

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HAYES: As the Trump administration continues separating immigrant children from their parents at the border, the House could finally be voting on immigration next week, Republican leadership, including speaker Paul Ryan, are allowing two bills to come to a vote. One, a compromised bill that is still being hammered out, but which is expected to include a provision to end family separation as well as offer protection for Dreamers, and one hard line bill that promises to clamp down even more forcefully on legal immigration.

Here with me, two members of the House, Republican Mark Meadows of North Carolina, who is also the chairman of the Conservative Freedom Caucus, and Democrat John Garamendi of California.

Congressman Garamendi, let me start with you on the compromise bill. You would be excused for thinking the whole thing is a sucker`s bet, given that there`s nothing actually concrete yet. Why are people who think it is a sucker`s bet wrong?

REP. JOHN GARAMENDI (D) CALIFORNIA: Well, we`re hopeful. We`re hopeful. We know there is a problem.
HAYES: I heard a lot of suckers say they`re hopeful in my time.

GARAMENDI: Well, I`m going to be hopeful because we know we have a serious problem. You just talked about a very serious problem that`s occurring in Brownsville. I know that Mark and I both would agree it`s a problem. We have got to find a solution. And it`s our job to do that.

Right now Mark and his team are working on a compromise, and I`ll let him talk about it from his perspective. From our perspective on the Democratic side, we`ve not been involved yet in that process. That would really be a true compromise.

But some of the things that we have heard that may be discussed, and perhaps Mark will share some of that with us, is in a positive direction. Details we don`t know, but I`m hopeful. I`m hopeful we can solve this kid problem that is a very serious thing, one that I know I hate and I`m sure Mark and I were discussing this earlier.

HAYES: Congressman, let me -- Meadows, let me ask you on that. And I think…

REP. MARK MEADOWS, (R) NORTH CAROLINA: Sure.

HAYES: I think there is a way in which this shocks the conscience. A lot of people, almost unanimous -- and I saw a story today about a breast- feeding mom who had her child literally taken away from her. She was nursing a 4-month-old baby. What is your position on the current U.S. policy of taking children away from their parents across the boarder?

MEADOWS: Well, obviously, I`ve been vocal on making sure that families stay together. And Chris, let me just say this, my good friend Matt Fuller with Huffington Post said this is the smartest cable TV, and I had to come on tonight just to figure that out. So, I…

HAYES: Well, thank you, Matt. It`s only because we`ve had him on, and I paid him for that, but I appreciate it nonetheless.

MEADOWS: Well, he did. But John is actually a good friend. And we`ve been actually working on this. We represent two very separate districts, very distinct differences, North Carolina, California, and yet we can come together on the fact that families need to be unified. So the decision that really has complicated things along with a 307 percent increase in what I would say fraud, you know, trafficking, human trafficking, are they families, are they not? We`ve got to get to the bottom of it and make sure families stay together.But let me just say this, in the compromise bill, there is distinct -- and legislation that will address this very issue, and it`s something actually that John and I have talked about a number of times.

HAYES: OK. But I just want to be -- first of all, I want to be specific here.

MEADOWS: Yeah.

HAYES: In terms of are they families, are they not? And there has been some sort of post talk or actualization even in federal court has argued those concerns about trafficking. That can be resolved with a DNA test, right. So, if that`s the concern…

MEADOWS: Well, I mean, that`s part of it. But Chris, you got a bigger problem. You`ve got 1,400 people in a rehabbed Walmart. Obviously, we`ve got a problem at the border that we have to address, and we have to hopefully do that in a bipartisan way.

HAYES: But let me ask you this, I don`t want to concede that frame. Problem at the border. What is the problem? People are coming here because they`re fleeing horrible persecution and want the come to this amazing country that you and I both love.

MEADOWS: Listen, I love the American way. There is a legal way to get here. There is a way that`s not legal to get here. And as we look at that, if we let everyone in who wanted to come here, I can tell you that`s just not a sustainable path that we can do.

HAYES: But wait a second. Asylum is legal, right?

MEADOWS; Right, right.

GARAMENDI: Well, there is a couple of different pieces of this. You just hit upon upon of them. Asylum is legal, and they present themselves and seek asylum.

HAYES: That`s right.

GARAMENDI: That is one set of issues.

There are others that sneak across the border illegally, and we need to differentiate there.

MEADOWS: Sure.

GARAMENDI: For those who are coming from asylum, there is no way that they should be separated from their kids. Similarly, if they`re coming here illegally, they shouldn`t be separated, but that is a different question than is the asylum issue.

HAYES: Wait, congressman, you just nodded your head. So, I want to get this on the record. He just said if they`re coming seeking asylum, there is no way they should be separated from their kids. You agree with that?

MEADOWS: Yeah, legitimate asylum, certainly I would agree with that.

HAYES: Just seeking it, right? They don`t know in advance whether they clear the review.

MEADOWS: Well, sometimes they do. And, Chris, you`re smart enough to know that there are a number of people who game the system. And I`m not saying that the vast majority of them do, but you can go on the internet and find it right now.

But real asylum, am I supportive of that, keeping families together? I think you`re making history, John and I agree on it.

HAYES: OK, well, that`s good -- but I just want to be clear, because this is actually like -- I know this sounds procedural, but it`s important, right.

MEADOWS: Right.

HAYES: What`s happening right now, as far as I understand, things are murky, and I`ve talked to different lawyers.

MEADOWS: Right.

HAYES: The prosecution is happening before an asylum review. So my point is when you`re talking about real asylum, right, these people are coming. They are being prosecuted as criminals for entry. Their children are being taken away before an asylum review.

MEADOWS: Yeah, I don`t know that I would agree with that, Chris, but go ahead. I know…

GARAMENDI: This is something that is clearly procedural. If somebody comes to the border and seeks asylum.

HAYES: Yes.

GARAMENDI: They`re not sneaking in.

HAYES: Correct.

GARAMENDI: They`re presenting themselves in what is an international legal way seeking asylum. Now, they may be cheating, but that can be adjudicated.

HAYES: Yes.

GARAMENDI: Later. Don`t separate the kids from the parents. Go through that legal adjudication, their hearings. And there is a whole series of questions about the hearings. That needs to be resolved also.

But we should never separate. Even if somebody is coming across illegally, you shouldn`t separate them. I understand you`ve got to deal with those who have presumably broken the law. Again, you have a legal process that you have to go through. I think part of our task is to make sure that the resources are available not just with the police at the border, the agents, but also in the legal review process, that there is sufficient resources, not only human resources, but also the physical resources for the kind of care that we should as human beings offer to another human being.

HAYES: Well, so so far this is encouraging on this issue.

GARAMENDI: That`s a good thing.

MEADOWS: It sounds like you find it encouraging.

HAYES: Well, yeah, because I really do think -- I do think there is sort of unanimity on this. I do think there`s a kind of…

MEADOWS: Sure.

HAYES: …intuition people have morally that you don`t take a 4-month-old away from her mother.

MEADOWS: Right.

HAYES: Final question here for you Congressman Meadows is, there is some confusion about whether this is being done as deterrent. Do you understand this as a policy explicitly to deter people from seeking asylum here?

MEADOWS: Yeah, my understanding, in talking to the secretary of department of homeland security as recent as a couple days ago is that it`s not being done as a deterrent, that was a direct phone conversation I had with her, because I was concerned. But in the end, we`re going to have to come together, Republicans and Democrats, to try to make sure that what happens is we find a solution.

GARAMENDI: I might add something to that, Chris, whether it is or is not a deterrent or meant to be, it certainly is. But the real solution here is to deal with the problems in those countries from which they come.

HAYES: Well, that is true.

GARAMENDI: And that is something that the United States needs to pay attention to.

HAYES: Congressman, I`m going to invite you both back on the day that you pass compromise legislation next week to end the practice. I`m really serious about that. I would love to -- for you to take a collective victory lap here.

Mark Meadows and John Garamendi, thank for being with me.

MEADOWS: Thanks, Chris.

GARAMENDI: Thanks, Chris.

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