MSNBC "All in with Chris Hayes" - Transcript: North Korea
Interview
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HAYES: I`m joined now by a staunch supporter of President Trump and his diplomatic effort with North Korea, Congressman Lee Zeldin, Republican of New York, a Member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. And my sense Congressman is you`re encouraged by what you saw in Singapore?
REP. LEE ZELDIN (R), NEW YORK: Well, sure. You see a document being signed after the meeting. There`s obviously a more work that needs to get done. It`s good to see pen to paper where Kim Jong-un is signing on to complete denuclearization. We still need to get more information with regards to verification to ensure that that gets done. We don`t want to see -- I don`t want to see a sunset provision where you know, eight or ten years down the road, all of a sudden we`re facing the same dynamic, the dilemma that we face with regards the Iran Nuclear Deal. North Korea may make additional requests for concessions on our part. Obviously, we have a sanctions regime that`s in place. Part of the debate with regards the Iran Nuclear Deal was whether or not sanctions relief was going to be immediate no suspension or it was going to be phased in over time based on compliance. So there`s obviously a lot of conversations still to be had. It`s going to take a while to denuclearize North Korea but I am encouraged by the fact that pen went to paper with a commitment for complete denuclearization.
HAYES: Do you think that the fact they signed something is going to make Kim Jong-un think twice? Like if he encounter something he wants to go back on, he`s going to be like well, I did sign that piece of paper.
ZELDIN: Well, I think what brought Kim Jong-un to the table is not a you know, desire to be able to sign the document. I think that Kim Jong-un has a -- and the North Koreans have a desire to get the sanctions relief, to be able to normalize relations within their region around the world, to be able to improve the fiscal situation of their country and to become prosperous. I think that`s what brought that into the table and that`s why Kim Jong-un signed.
HAYES: So what do you -- there`s a certain kind of critique that goes look, if you want to help the oppressed people of Korea and I think we agreed that North Koreans are oppressed, like, you don`t to go kiss the reign of Kim Jong-un. What do you say to people who kind of blanched at watching this?
ZELDIN: Well, as a -- as a challenge when you`re trying to get a nation to agree to denuclearizing and you want to pursue a long-elusive peace on the Korean Peninsula and potentially bring North and South together, this is something that obviously has been going on a lot longer than Kim Jong-un has even been alive and President Trump has experienced nearly his entire life. This has been going on for a long time, this forgotten war and we have a lot of Korean vets here. Go ahead.
HAYES: No, just -- the point is I mean, there is a form of critique and we`ve seen it right, a little bit I think around this, but we`ve seen in the past that basically, you are legitimating this guy. You were legitimating someone who does all these terrible things. You`re standing there shoulder to shoulder with him and that`s bad. What do you say to that idea?
ZELDIN: Yes. The -- well this is part of the challenge. I mean, are you going to be able to get the deal if you are not getting along with them, if you are insisting on not having any North Korean flags, if you -- when you have a press op, when they go into the room and you know, you want to stand instead of seated because one leader of one country is so much taller than the other. I would imagine that the staging and the conversations of, you
know, who`s arriving first and all of that probably had its own negotiation in and of itself. Now, I wasn`t in the room, you weren`t in the room but there was some indication given by President Trump that they did reach the
topic of human rights. However, the purpose of being there at this meeting wasn`t to confront that head-on but obviously what loon large was Otto Warmbier and the fact that there is a long human rights list of violations
on the part of the North Koreans. So you know, that that`s true. I just don`t know if it`s the best-negotiating tactic to confront that head-on before getting through some of this other stuff.
HAYES: I mean, I am inclined to agree. Actually, I just want to -- this is something that you had said about when you`re critiquing President Obama meeting with Raul Castro which is a somewhat similar situation, no nuclear weapon there. I want to just play what you had to say as the critique which represented a lot of Republican Party critique of that diplomatic effort. Take a listen.
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HAYES: Do you understand what people feel like there`s maybe some bad faith or double standard here?
ZELDIN: The -- this negotiation with Cuba, you have Cuban people who have long been oppressed, there are other issues --
HAYES: So are the North Koreans.
ZELDIN: Yes, except here -- I mean, with regards to Cuba, we were making dozens of concessions and not getting the reciprocation. So that was a big issue and --
HAYES: If you were criticizing them sitting there as equals, though, Congressman, like that`s the whole point.
ZELDIN: Because we were sitting down with the Cubans and we were making dozens of concessions --
HAYES: You just said that again.
ZELDIN: Yes, but President Trump wasn`t sitting down with Kim Jong-un and making dozens of concessions and not asking for anything in return. Additionally, let`s just say President Trump did sit down to make dozens of concessions with Kim Jong-un, my problem with that situation is that Kim Jong-un similarly to the Castro family, they won`t deliver that sanctions relief to their oppressed people. The way the system is in place in North Korea similar is the way the situation is in Cuba. It stays at the top and it doesn`t help the people so my problem --
HAYES: Eventually that`s got to be -- eventually that`s got to be the roadmap, right? I mean, the point of and all this is there going to be some quid pro quos if this is going to work out.
ZELDIN: Yes, I just -- you know, the Cuba example and there are other nations where you know, we have had negotiations in years past. I have a problem with sitting down at the table with a foreign dictator and just unilaterally making all sorts of concessions it was not getting the results that we`re looking for.
HAYES: Well, it was -- that was the context of a negotiation. Let me ask you this though. I mean, I tend to think that talking`s better than war and I think it`s good that they talk, that that`s my own personal editorial position on this. But you would agree, it`s a crazy thing to say that Kim Jong-un loves his people which is what the President said today.
ZELDIN: Yes, there`s a -- there`s a relationship that goes on during Kim Jong-un and his people that is certainly unique. I would say this, what`s interesting --
HAYES: Wait a second. Congressman, that is a --
ZELDIN: No, no, let me get the point out. Let me get the point out.
HAYES: OK.
ZELDIN: So Kim Jong-un oppresses his people. They`re living in poverty, the imprisonment --
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ZELDIN: But my point that I was trying to make, what`s very interesting in a North Korean example -- so we operate in this country under the dime principle with our foreign policy diplomacy information, military economics. In Iran, you have millions of Iranians who right now want a free stable democratic Iran, they would love to overthrow the party that`s in power. In North Korea what`s interesting is that the North Korean people believe that the troubles that they face are not in spite of Kim Jong-un`s best efforts to pursue a better path.
HAYES: Because it`s a totalitarian state that doesn`t have civil society whereas Iran does.
ZELDIN: And state -- and state media and you know, that they have not been westernized in the way millions of Iranians.
HAYES: Congressman, honestly, you don`t think that it is fair to say that Kim Jong-un loves his people. It`s the largest prison camp in the world.
ZELDIN: I never said that.
HAYES: But you think -- wouldn`t you agree that`s a crazy thing to say that Kim Jong-un loves his people?
ZELDIN: Yes, I believe that it would be better for him to do what he can in his power and there`s a lot more that he can do to improve the lives of his people for sure. Now --
HAYES: That I think we agree.
ZELDIN: Yes, and I would one other thing that we don`t know all the details on this. That while we`ve known of all the fiscal issues that are -- that are happening within their nation, right it seems like that those fiscal challenges have worked its way further up the government and something that may actually be driving Kim Jong-un to the table is that last August there`s a U.N. Security Council Resolution effectively cut off over one-third North Korean exports. It`s possible that Kim Jong-un knows now that he needs to pursue a different path for his country because when you look five, ten, 20 years down the road, the math just doesn`t add up.
Their nation won`t survive.
HAYES: All right, Congressman Lee Zeldin, thank you very much for being with me tonight.
ZELDIN: Thank you, Chris.
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