CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview With Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson

Interview

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TAPPER: Joining me now is the chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, Republican Ron Johnson of Wisconsin.

Senator, thanks so much for joining us.

I just mentioned that new guidance that the Trump administration released last night. Are you satisfied with the solution, or do you want the children to be reunited with their parents even more quickly?

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R), WISCONSIN: Well, good morning, Jake.

Well, the most recent information we have from DHS is they have reunited about 21 percent of those children that were separated from their families under this new enforcement policy.

But you said that this was a mess created by the Trump administration. Jake, this mess goes back decades. We really didn't have an illegal immigration problem when we had the Bracero guest-worker program in the '60s.

We had circularity of immigration. But farmers unions wanted that thing shut -- or farmer worker unions want that one shut down. And so that really began the problem.

But the Flores decision, for example, really initiated in 1985. And so this -- this is just a huge problem.

We don't have the capacity to handle all the unaccompanied children, all the family units that are now flooding our border because of a host of a judicial decisions, legal precedent, and laws, I think very well-intentioned, but have negative unintended consequences that have created this -- these incentives for people to flood our borders.

TAPPER: Well...

JOHNSON: So, we just don't have the capacity. But this problem's been around for a long time.

TAPPER: Absolutely, the problem of illegal immigration, it's been around for decades. And, absolutely, President Trump inherited it.

I'm specifically referring to the policy of 100 percent family separation at the border, taking the kids from the parents, not the overall policy of illegal immigration.

Let's talk about the separation policy, and the idea now that you -- the Trump administration wants to reunite the kids with their parents.

A public defender involved in immigration hearings in El Paso wrote in "The Washington Post" that one immigration judge was so upset about this process, he said in a hearing -- quote -- "I can't understand this. If someone at the jail takes your wallet, they give you a receipt. They take your kids, and you get nothing, not even a slip of paper?" -- unquote.

The Trump administration said last night they know where all the kids are, but they're building out better databases to link parents and children.

[09:05:02]

Can you tell our viewers this morning that the Trump administration knows right now which kids belong with which parents?

JOHNSON: That is what they're claiming.

Again, they have reunited 21 percent. But, again, Jake, is a mess.

Here, I want to show a chart. You know how much I like charts.

You take a look at what might have caused all this, is, go back to 2008, '9, '10, and '11. Prior to DACA, we had 4,000 unaccompanied children from Central America coming in here.

Then President Obama instituted Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals. And you can see the result. Since that point in time, over 200,000 unaccompanied children have come in from Central America.

In addition to that, if you take a look at family units, we have -- we have more than 399,000 family units who have come in because of our laws, because of the way we treat them. It creates an incentive. So, if you total that all up, it's almost 900,000 individuals coming into this country illegally because our laws and legal precedent, 900,000.

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: We have -- we -- we -- we have family detention centers with about 3,300 beds. We have adult ICE detention centers with about 2,300 beds -- 23,000 beds.

We don't have the capacity for hundreds of thousand people trying to get in this country illegally.

TAPPER: Well...

JOHNSON: So, we can make that a legal process, but we have -- we have -- we have to fix our laws. We have to end those incentives.

And what drives me nuts -- I come from the private sector. I manufactured -- I do problem solving. We aren't facing reality. We're not going back in and really identifying the root cause. Nobody's admitting that laws that have been passed with good intentions are actually fueling this crisis.

So, until we actually are honest with ourselves and we really do address, end those legal loopholes, change those laws...

TAPPER: Yes.

JOHNSON: ... secure our border, treat people with real humanity -- so, what we're trying to do is what one possible fix is...

TAPPER: Senator...

JOHNSON: ... increase the number of immigration laws by about 225 five judges. Right now, we only have 350, 74 at the border.

We need to increase that. The Trump administration is going to try and come up another 15,000 beds for family units. But none of this is easy.

TAPPER: So, I hear what you're saying in terms of the overall problem.

Now, you have relied -- your committee has relied on economist Michael Clemens at the Center for Global Development for the committee's work. He says the main reason for the increase of undocumented immigrants crossing the border, including the undocumented -- the unaccompanied minors that you referred to, was the increase in violence in Central America, specifically Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, not the DACA policy.

Is he wrong?

JOHNSON: Well, again, let's just take a look at the chart.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: But correlation is not causation, Senator.

JOHNSON: Because -- because -- because -- because of our insatiable demand for drugs, yes, public institutions in Central America have been destroyed.

But they were destroyed prior to 2012 and DACA. We were 4,000 kids on average coming in from Central America. Now the average is well over 30,000, more than 200,000 since 2012.

So, I don't know. It's a pretty strong correlation that might just indicate causation as well, so...

TAPPER: OK.

JOHNSON: Again, there are many causes. There are many causes to this. Part of it is our insatiable demand for drugs.

But one of the reasons we have to secure our border is because drugs, heroin is also flowing over that unsecure border. So we have to secure our border. President Trump is trying to grapple with that reality, unlike President Obama, which basically instituted a catch- and-release program fueling the crisis with families as well.

TAPPER: So, can I just ask you, Senator, are you confident that the Trump administration has the data and will be able to reunite the remaining 80 percent of these 2,300 kids with their parents?

Do that know that you're -- you're the chairman of the Homeland Security Committee in the Senate. You would know, theoretically. Does the U.S. government have the skills, do they have the information to reunite these kids, as first lady Melania Trump says she wants to have happen?

JOHNSON: So, they're saying they do. We will continue our oversight on that.

But the track record in the prior administration wasn't particularly good either. We have held a hearing. Rob Portman, subcommittee under mine, the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigation, looked into the lack of coordination between DHS, who, with unaccompanied children has to return -- turn those unaccompanied children over to HHS within 72 hours.

And they literally lost track of I think it was about 1,500 kids out of about 7,500 when they were looking.

TAPPER: You keep talking about the Obama administration. You keep talking about the Obama administration.

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: This was within the Obama -- I know.

This was within the Obama administration, and then the Trump administration trying to check on the sponsors and unaccompanied children that had -- had been sent into HHS.

So, again, Jake, this is an incredibly complex problem. It's primarily -- we have a -- we don't have the capacity to handle this flood.

So our -- the goal of our policy literally ought to be to reduce that flow. And there's -- we -- we have history in terms how to do this.

Michael Chertoff faced the same problem with Brazilians flooding this country 2005 -- 31,000 Brazilians started -- they called the operation Texas Hold 'Em.

[09:10:05]

They -- they -- they immediately apprehended the Brazilians, and they sent them right back home.

TAPPER: So...

JOHNSON: The next year, it was 1,500 Brazilians, within three years less than 1,000.

So, we learned from that...

TAPPER: Right.

JOHNSON: ... if you literally apprehend, quickly process, and then return people trying to get in this country illegally, it discouraged further illegal immigration.

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: That's what we have been doing.

We have been encouraging -- we have been encouraging illegal immigration.

TAPPER: Is your committee going to hold hearings on the separation of 2,500 children from their parents? Is that something that you think that your committee should provide oversight over and try to find out more about?

JOHNSON: Well, right now, we're providing oversight by getting information from DHS. And, yes, we're on the case.

We have held over two dozen hearings on some aspect of our unsecured border. Yes, I'm looking at producing a piece of legislation myself that might come through our jurisdiction, as opposed to Judiciary Committee as well.

A bunch of us are working on this. This is a problem. We all want to fix it. But we have to do the root cause analysis. We can't rely on demagoguery. We can't look at it just all the rhetoric around this thing. We actually have to look at facts. We have to actually solve the problem, which we have not done. One of the things we have done in those hearings is, I go back to 1986, and I list about six or seven laws that have been passed to fix the problem. And then alongside those laws, I list the number of people in this country illegally. It goes from 3.5 million to 6 to 9 to 10 to 11 to about 12 million people in this country illegally.

We have never fixed this problem since the mid-'80s.

TAPPER: Well, the president...

JOHNSON: We have to go back in history.

TAPPER: Yes.

JOHNSON: What fuels this, what caused it, and actually address those root causes, which we just don't do very well in Congress.

TAPPER: President Trump tweeted Friday morning: "Republicans should stop wasting their time on immigration until after we elect more senators and congress men, women in November. Dems are just playing games, have no intention of doing anything that solves this decades- old problem. We can great legislation after the red wave" -- unquote.

Do you agree with the president? You say you want comprehensive immigration reform. President Trump just threw a grenade into the works there.

JOHNSON: Well, I'm going to keep working on it.

And I will work in good faith with the members of my committee. We really have a pretty nonpartisan committee, work real well. We passed all kinds of pieces of legislation. So I will work with Ranking Member Claire McCaskill and Heidi Heitkamp and Doug Jones and Gary Peters, Maggie Hassan.

And so, hopefully, these are some individuals that want to solve this problem. And I want to work with them in good faith to do it. I have got a real good track record doing that.

TAPPER: All right, Senator, thank you so much. Appreciate your time this morning.

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