CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Interview With Congressman Ted Lieu

Interview

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BLITZER: Joining us now, Congressman Ted Lieu. He's a Democrat. He serves on the Judiciary and Foreign Affairs Committee.

Congressman, what's the message that the president is sending with this latest pardon? REP. TED LIEU (D), CALIFORNIA: Thank you, Wolf, for your question.

Even though I'm a former prosecutor, I have sent a number of letters in support of commutations, clemency and pardons, because one of the things that makes us human is our capacity for forgiveness and mercy.

And that's why, when the president uses the pardon power, he needs to do that to vindicate those values. Instead, it looks like the president is abusing his pardon power, either for sheer political reasons, or to send a message to people under investigation, or because the defendant happened have high name identification.

BLITZER: But you don't deny, Congressman, that the president, according to the U.S. Constitution, has the authority to issue pardons?

[18:10:06]

LIEU: He absolutely has the authority to issue pardons.

But that's why we need to make sure that he does it in a way that vindicates the values of mercy and forgiveness, and not do it because he's trying to help people who happen to be celebrities or to do it for sheer political reasons.

That really debases those values that we hold dear as a society.

BLITZER: That's your interpretation, Congressman.

But let me read from the U.S. Constitution. "The president shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment."

There's no reference to mercy or anything along those lines.

LIEU: No one is saying that the president doesn't have the power to pardon these people.

What some of us are saying is, it's inappropriate, because it looks like he's either pardoning people who have been convicted of similar crimes to which he and his associates are being investigated, such as perjury, making false statements and obstruction of justice, or he's doing it for people who have high name identification or celebrities.

And that seems inappropriate.

BLITZER: The president tweeted that Dinesh D'Souza, whom be pardoned today, was, in his words -- 'was treated very unfairly by our government" -- close quote doubt.

What does that tell you?

LIEU: Well, it tells he didn't look at the facts of the case.

Dinesh D'Souza was convicted of violating our campaign finance laws. Those laws are put in place to make sure that we don't abuse the system, we don't have a flood of money coming in, we don't have straw donors.

That's actually some of the same crimes that Michael Cohen is now being investigated for. So that does seem troubling to me, that pardoning of Dinesh D'Souza.

BLITZER: What would you do, Congressman, if the president eventually were to pardon, let's say, Michael Flynn, his former national security adviser, or Paul Manafort, his former campaign chairman, or Michael Cohen, his longtime personal attorney, who hasn't yet been charged with anything, although he's under criminal investigation?

LIEU: That's a great question, Wolf.

I think special counsel Mueller is very aware of that. So, in Michael Cohen's case, for example, his business partner has pled guilty to state crimes, which leads me to believe that Michael Cohen is potentially also liable for state crimes.

Those cannot be pardoned by the president.

Michael Flynn by now would have given most, if not all of the information that special counsel Mueller needs. So I think, if the pardons haven't happened already, it's probably too late to prevent special counsel Mueller from already getting the information from George Papadopoulos, Michael Flynn and Mr. Gates, who have already pled guilty for quite awhile.

BLITZER: CNN's White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins is reporting that President Trump pressured the attorney general, Jeff Sessions, to un-recuse himself from the Russia investigation multiple occasions, in addition to that one time we knew earlier that occurred at Mar-a-Lago down in Florida, the president's resort there.

Legally, is there anything stopping the president from reinstating Sessions to oversee the Mueller investigation?

LIEU: In my view, that would be obstruction of justice. He would be doing it because he wants Jeff Sessions to protect him.

That is not the job of the attorney general. The job of the attorney general is to follow the Constitution, federal statutes and the regulations of the Department of Justice. And it's very clear Jeff Sessions has recused himself from these issues because of the conflicts of interest

That's why Robert Mueller is investigating this, because it looks like obstruction of justice--

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LIEU: -- get Jeff Sessions. Yes.

BLITZER: Let me also get your reaction, Congressman, to "The New York Times"' reporting on Andrew McCabe. He's the fired number two over at the FBI. A memo he wrote on the firing of his boss, the FBI Director James Comey. The former FBI deputy director wrote in that memo that Rod Rosenstein, who currently oversees the Mueller investigation, the deputy attorney general, said that President Trump asked him -- asked him to reference the Russian investigation in his explanation of Comey's firing.

How important is that, do you believe, to understanding the president's motivation for the firing?

LIEU: So, it's not clear what that means, if that meant that Donald Trump wanted Rosenstein to reference that Comey said the president was not under investigation in the Russia investigation, or if he wanted him to say something more. It's ambiguous.

I think the most important thing is just to see what the president said in his own words. He went on national TV with Lester Holt and basically said he fired Comey because of the Russia investigation.

And what's more important, he told the Russian ambassador he fired Comey because there was great pressure on him from the Russia investigation and he fired Comey to relieve that pressure. That's textbook obstruction of justice.

BLITZER: Congressman Ted Lieu, thanks so much for joining us.

LIEU: Thank you, Wolf.

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