MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Russian Investigations

Interview

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MADDOW: Republicans in Congress for several weeks now have been demanding of the Justice Department hand over all the information that it has on a confidential human source used by the FBI in its investigation during the campaign of the Russian effort to interfere with the 2016 election. As part of that investigation, this confidential source reportedly made contact with three people on the Trump campaign who were believed to have had some sort of contact with Russian agents while Russia was interfering in the election.

Confidential human sources are supposed to be the safest secrets inside U.S. law enforcement and counterintelligence, because if U.S. law enforcement and counterintelligence are known not to be able to protect their sources, they`ll never get anybody to be that kind of source again, which would very much hurt American law enforcement and intelligence.

Nevertheless, Trump-supporting Republican members of Congress are demanding all information that the Justice Department has on that confidential source. Their inquiries have already led to the source`s name being exposed in the media, and now it appears Republicans are about to get a briefing by the Justice Department and the FBI about that source, and apparently, about the evidence that source collected for the FBI in this ongoing and open investigation.

They`re apparently going to get that tomorrow. The White House has set up a meeting tomorrow for the FBI director, the director of national intelligence and a top Justice Department official to give that briefing to Republican Congressman Devin Nunes and Trey Gowdy. The White House says the meeting is for Nunes and Gowdy to, quote, review highly classified and other information they have requested.

Now, whatever sensitive information the White House is ordering the Justice Department to reveal, it`s only going to get revealed to those two pro- Trump Republican members of Congress, which is unusual, and we`ll talk about that in a moment. But it`s not like anybody is hiding what the purpose is of this meeting. The president`s Russia lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, said a couple of days ago, as his client, the president had started publicly demanding exposure of this FBI source, Mr. Giuliani told reporters that his client, the president, needs more information about this confidential FBI source, so he can know what the special counsel has on him, in terms of evidence, before he agrees to an interview with the special counsel.

Quote, we can`t let our guy go in and be questioned without knowing this. Giuliani, quote, acknowledged that the FBI releasing information about the source would benefit Trump`s defense. He said, quote, I don`t care so much about the name as I do about the content. What prompted them to do it? What did they learn from it?
Yes. What did he turn up? What did he get on me?

I mean, everybody who is under investigation would like to know in the middle of the investigation exactly what information an FBI confidential informant was able to collect on them, right? Everybody would want access to that kind of information if they were the subject of an ongoing law enforcement investigation.

But you`re not allowed to get that. That`s not how this works, unless, apparently, you`re the president, and you order your Justice Department to turn over that information to your allies in Congress who are not even
pretending that they`re not going to turn around and give it to you.

Joining us now is Congressman Adam Schiff, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee.
Congressman Schiff, it`s nice to have you with us. Thanks for the time tonight.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA), RANKING MEMBER, HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Thanks, Rachel.

MADDOW: What`s your reaction to this briefing, this meeting that has been scheduled for tomorrow? I know you`ve been critical. It wasn`t clear to me until tonight that it`s actually going to happen. Now that it is going to happen, it`s just those two Republican members of Congress, what`s your reaction?

SCHIFF: Well, it`s still not clear to me what was going to happen. I was informed by the head of one of our intelligence agencies earlier tonight that the meeting or briefing tomorrow would be a bipartisan briefing at a Gang of Eight level, and that would be it. And I expect them to live up to that commitment, that is the right procedure, if there`s any information that could compromise a source or sources and methods. So that`s the practice that has been around for decades, and they need to follow it. And I expect them to honor their word.
But we are hearing conflicting things from the White House. If the White House somehow brow-beat the intelligence agencies into submission, then it`s another affirmation of what you were talking about earlier, in terms of Jeff Flake`s speech. Our democracy really is in deep trouble, deeper trouble than we might have imagined.

And I think we have to look at the context here. This takes place at a time when the indictments are multiplying, the guilty pleas are multiplying, and the number of witnesses cooperating are also multiplying. And I think that has led the president to decide he needs to know the evidence that might be used against him.

As Giuliani said, the president has a right to see the evidence against him. That`s true if he`s been indicted. And unless Mr. Giuliani has something to tell us, he has not been indicted. A defendant or a witness or a target or someone who is an innocent bystander of an investigation has no right to see the product of an ongoing investigation.

And the members they choose to show it to is significant. You have a chairman who was forced to recuse himself earlier for working in combination with the White House. And in Mr. Gowdy you have someone who is not even a member of the Gang of Eight, who has no right to see the material, but often during the Russian investigation acted as a lawyer for the president.

That is completely inappropriate. And they need to follow the procedure and they need to observe our system of checks and balances. This should be Gang of Eight or not at all.

MADDOW: And, Congressman, just to be clear about what you said right at the outset there, you said that you have been told by the head of an intelligence agency that tomorrow`s briefing actually will be for the Gang
of Eight?

SCHIFF: That`s what I was told, I was told when it would be and I was told it would be at the Gang of Eight level. That the White House would open the meeting and then leave the room, and that`s what I expect to happen tomorrow. No one has called me to contradict what I was informed by the head of one of our intelligence agencies.

If we learn that through pressure from the White House or partisan pressure from the Hill that the intelligence community has abandoned the protocol of meeting with the Gang of Eight, it will be another sign that our system of checks and balances is being broken down by this president. Not only members of Congress, but members of the Justice Department, FBI and our intelligence agencies need to stand up to this president. As I have expressed frequently in my conversations with Rod Rosenstein and others, if they try to appease this president, it is just going to invite more demands from him. At some point, they have to say no.

MADDOW: Congressman, can you tell us which official, the head of which agency told you that tomorrow`s meeting will be open to the Gang of Eight?

SCHIFF: I don`t want to get into the specific cabinet member that I spoke with, but this is something that was conveyed to me and others in no uncertain terms and I heard nothing to the contrary and I expect them to live up to their commitment.

MADDOW: One last question for you, sir. You referenced Rudy Giuliani`s comments about the president at least through his lawyer believing that he has a right to the evidence that may have been collected against him, even though as far as we know the president has not been indicted. Is there any protection?

If this Gang of Eight meeting happens tomorrow, if you`re in the room, if you`re one of the people briefed, if this confidential source information is briefed tomorrow, is handed over to some select members of Congress, is there any way to protect that information from ending up with the president and his legal team for use in their defense in this matter? Obviously, in any law enforcement investigation, it would be very improper to give information like this in an ongoing investigation, evidence collected by a live source and a live investigation that hasn`t been concluded. It would be improper for that to be conveyed to the subject of an investigation or his defense team.

Is there any means by which that can be protected?

SCHIFF: Well, first of all, Rachel, I don`t think this information should be conveyed to Congress at all. I`ve heard no legitimate reason for this except that the president and his lawyer want to see it. That is not a legitimate reason, even to present this information to the Gang of Eight.

So, the first question to be asked during the Gang of Eight is, why are we even meeting? Why is this being initiated by the White House?

But the reality is that, all too often when the Department of Justice and FBI have capitulated and shared information with the GOP members of Congress, it has ended up being published on Fox News or through "The Washington Examiner" or other outlets of choice for the committee Republicans.

After all, the whole point of this is two-fold. It`s to share the information with the president`s defense team, as Giuliani made to abundantly clear, but it is also to pick a fight with the Justice Department, to make a series of escalating demands, so that when ultimately the department is forced to refuse, as Rod Rosenstein said that the
department cannot be extorted, then the president has the pretext that he wants and needs to fire people.

So, we need to be aware of this. Ultimately, there`s only one remedy, and I know people are saying, you know, as the minority, what can you do? At the end of the day, there is only one remedy, and that is to make sure the party of power is not -- the party out of power is not the minority, is to throw the bums out who are not living up to their institutional responsibilities and protecting our system of checks and balances.

MADDOW: Congressman Adam Schiff, who is the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee -- thank you for being with us tonight, sir. Thanks for breaking that news here. I appreciate you being here.

SCHIFF: Thank you.

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