MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Federal Investigations

Interview

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MADDOW: Senator Mark Warner, who`s the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee this weekend saying that efforts by the president or his Republican allies in Congress to reveal a confidential FBI source in an ongoing investigation, he`s suggesting that would not only be dangerous, it would be illegal.

Republican supporters of the president in Congress have been specifically demanding access to all documents at the Justice Department that relate to an FBI confidential source who made contact during the Trump campaign with Trump campaign advisers who the FBI believed had suspicious contacts with Russia. What is reported to be that source`s name, the name of the confidential source has now surfaced in multiple news outlets.

Well, today, the president summoned the head of the FBI and the deputy attorney general in charge of the Russia investigation to come meet with him at the White House, which is remarkable enough given that he is the subject of an ongoing investigation. After that meeting, the White House released a statement saying that it would, quote, immediately set up a meeting with the FBI, Justice Department and DNI, together with congressional leaders, to review highly classified and other information that they have requested.

Handing over information on a confidential FBI source in the middle of an ongoing investigation because the president and the president`s supporters want to undermine that investigation, the investigation to which that source has contributed, that`s something. That is a break with all kinds of precedent.

But given that this pressure on this confidential source has also now led to what is purportedly the revelation of the identity of this source in multiple news outlets, is there a real question as to whether or not this pressure on this confidential source and the revealing of his purported identity, is there a question as to whether that might be itself illegal.

Congressman Jim Himes is a member of the Intelligence Committee in the House.

Congressman, it`s really nice to have you with us tonight. Thank you for being here.

REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Hi, Rachel. Good to be with you.

MADDOW: Do you share this concern from Senator Warner that the revelation or at least the purported revelation or the identity of this confidential source might be evidence of a crime?

HIMES: Well, there`s no question that giving up the name of a source, whether it`s in the intelligence world or law enforcement world, if something is classified, putting that out there is absolutely illegal. Look, the case most Americans would remember would be the famous one where one Scooter Libby was convicted of blowing the identity of a CIA operative, Valerie Plame, convicted of that, sentence commuted and then, lo and behold, one President Donald J. Trump pardoned Scooter Libby for that. So, clearly that is illegal.

Interestingly enough, maybe not for the president. The president is, after all, the declassifying authority. But, Rachel, there is a much bigger thing at stake here, which is that as we speak, FBI agents are in places
all over this country trying to persuade informants and others to trust them, to help them on a case.

As we speak, in places like Moscow and Rome and Baghdad, CIA officers are trying to convince people to help us in keeping the country safe, to betray their country, to hand over secrets, and that does not happen if they can`t look those sources in the eye and say, come hell or high water we`ll keep you safe.

Now, we have the president, now we have Devin Nunes, now we have Mark Meadows and any number of congressmen in a political environment saying, hey, we need to know who this is. That is going to, legal or illegal, badly, badly damage this country`s national security and its ability to prosecute crimes.

MADDOW: We got a statement tonight from the White House, congressman, which the White House communications director explained that the chief of staff, John Kelly, will convene a meeting with the Justice Department, the FBI, the director of national intelligence and congressional leaders to review highly classified and other information they have requested.

Do you know what that is about? And do you have any sense of how the Justice Department could handle this, in terms of the range of responsible versus reckless?

HIMES: Well, you know, what`s happening here is just -- look, it`s not a mystery. This has been going on for a year right now. This is driven by Devin Nunes and by a number of representatives of the freedom caucus and they are setting about to damage this investigation.

Remember, they don`t have to prove anything, and they haven`t proved a single thing. We`ve been dealing with this for a year. The president, Obama, you know, bugged Trump Tower, Susan Rice and Samantha Power were overexposing, unmasking people`s names. This is just the latest spaghetti on the wall.

The problem is this one is very, very serious because apparently, and you made this point, apparently, we are introducing a new concept into American law, which is if you are the subject of or of interest in an investigation, you get to demand that the investigators tell you what they know.

Now, obviously, that only happens with Donald Trump because he`s president of the United States but ever car thief out there, every embezzler, every white collar criminal, they can point to this and say, hey, I want to know what the prosecution has on me. That`s just a terrible, terrible place to go for the judicial system in this country.

MADDOW: It sounds like you fault the president and his supporters in Congress for pushing us to that point, but you also fault the Justice Department for giving in?

HIMES: Well, you know, these guys have a -- they`re caught between a terrible rock and a hard place, right? On the one hand, you know, the fact that they have entertained Devin Nunes and others who have demanded to see FISA warrant applications, this is brand new that they`re siccing the inspector general on this crazy idea that there may have been a, quote/unquote, spy in the Trump campaign. It`s wrong.

On the other hand, I got to believe that some of these people are saying to themselves, if we don`t give them something, we will wake up -- and the president, upon who all of these concepts, legal, illegal, constitutional,
all of these concepts are completely lost, the president will wake up one morning and end this investigation. And now, we`ve got protests in the streets, we`ve got a president whose very legitimacy is questioned.

So, my guess is they`re trying to give a little to calm the president without throwing this country into the kind of constitutional crisis that would ensue if the president ended this investigation.

MADDOW: Congressman Jim Himes, member of the House Intelligence Committee, thank you, sir. Much appreciated.

HIMES: Thank you, Rachel.

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