CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Interview With California Congressman Ted Lieu

Interview

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BLITZER: Important point, indeed.

All right, Jessica, thanks very much.

Let's get some more on all of this. Democratic Congressman Ted Lieu of California is joining us. He's a member of both the Judiciary and Foreign Affairs Committees.

Congressman, thanks for joining us.

As you know, the president tweeted -- and I'm reading it now -- "There is no O," referring to obstruction. "It's called fighting back."

[18:10:04]

If there is no underlying crime, do you think the president has a point, that what you may call obstruction, his supporters would just see as fighting back or counterpunching?

REP. TED LIEU (D), CALIFORNIA: The president is absolutely wrong.

You can fight back without violating the law. And in this case, the president chose to fight back by committing obstruction of justice. When he fired James Comey, he accidentally fire James Comey. He did that intentionally.

And then a few days later, he went on national TV and told America his reason for doing so was because of the Russian probe. That's textbook obstruction of justice. That's not how you fight back legally.

BLITZER: If this does eventually come down to impeachment in the House of Representatives, isn't that, though, a useful political argument for him?

LIEU: You're right, Wolf. Impeachment is both a political and legal matter.

I think impeachment, like Congress' power to declare war, is one of our gravest responsibilities. It should never be our first option. It has to be our last, and only if we have enough facts and if the law is behind us.

So we have to wait to see what the special counsel's investigation reveals.

BLITZER: The president also tweeted this: "Is this phony witch-hunt going to go on even longer, so it wrongfully impacts the midterm elections, which is what the Democrats always intended?"

What do you say to that point the president's making? Do you think Democrats should be campaigning on this issue, or is that a mistake?

LIEU: What Democrats actually are campaigning on, having a better deal, better wages, better jobs, and better skills. And we're campaigning on an economic message.

In terms of the special counsel investigation, these things take time. Federal investigations take time. Ken Starr's investigation took a very long time. So we just have to wait to see what happens with all the interviews and how the investigation proceeds. BLITZER: The president's new lawyer Rudy Giuliani, Congressman, says

that they don't have to comply with a Robert Mueller subpoena. Giuliani says they can -- quote -- and I'm reading now -- they can assert the same privileges other presidents have.

What does that mean?

LIEU: Giuliani is just flat-out wrong.

The central lesson of Watergate is that no one is above the law, not even the president. And Nixon vs. the United States, the U.S. Supreme Court came in and said the president has to comply with a subpoena.

Now, in this case, Donald Trump could comply with the subpoena, show up at an interview, and then plead the Fifth Amendment. That is his right to do so. But, politically, it would look very, very bad.

BLITZER: Well, elaborate. Would be the implications if he were to plead the Fifth? Which, of course, is the right of every American citizen to do so, so you don't incriminate yourself.

LIEU: The Fifth Amendment protects defendants in a court of law and in legal proceedings. It does not protect anyone in the court of public opinion.

And Donald Trump, if he were to plead the Fifth, which cause the overwhelming majority of Americans to wonder, what is he hiding and what is he guilty of? So, it would be politically a very bad thing for him to do.

BLITZER: Yes, he has said on several occasions -- we have played the clips many times -- that the mob pleads the Fifth. If you have nothing to hide, why are you pleading the Fifth? If you're not guilty, why are you pleading the Fifth?

He said that on many occasions.

Let's turn to another sensitive issue that's unfolding right now. What do you make of the efforts by the House Intelligence Committee chairman, Devin Nunes, to hold the attorney general, Jeff Sessions, in contempt?

LIEU: So, CNN has reported that Devin Nunes doesn't read documents after he requests them. So I'm not sure why he's even requesting documents from Attorney general Jeff Sessions at Department of Justice.

And in this case, there's a difference between Congress doing oversight and Congress meddling in an active investigation. What Devin Nunes is doing is meddling in an active investigation. And the Department of Justice has said this could potentially put sources and lives at risk.

It's a really bad idea, what Devin Nunes is doing.

BLITZER: Do you believe that Congressman Nunes would do such a thing, threaten the Republican-appointed, the president's appointed attorney general, Jeff Sessions, that he would do this, threatening him with contempt, without some sort of green light from the White House?

LIEU: I don't think he would do that.

As you know, last year, he coordinated with the White House and misled the American people by saying he had all this super-secret classified information he needed to go brief the White House on, and it turned out the White House had given it to him for him to do a press conference for.

So he really looks like a puppet of the White House. So, I think this is something that he is working with the White House on to again -- to make the Department of Justice look like they're not credible. And that really is an assault on our democracy and on our law enforcement, and it has just got to stop.

BLITZER: On a different topic, I'm curious to get your thoughts.

What's your reaction to the Trump administration's decision to refer every person now caught crossing the border into the United States illegally for federal prosecution?

LIEU: That is a really bad idea in terms of resources.

[18:15:01]

We don't have the resources to do that. There's no massive problem. If you look at the data, net migration from Mexico for the last six years has been negative. That means more Mexicans have left America then entered.

And we're really focusing on a problem that is not there. So I think we should apply our federal resources to much more important problems facing America.

BLITZER: And what's your reaction to Jeff Sessions, the attorney general, saying that if, let's say, a mother crosses the border illegally into the United States with, let's say, two children, they're going to separate the mother from the kids; they're going to send the mother to one detention facility, the kids someplace else?

What's your reaction to that?

LIEU: I think that's a horrendous policy. Separating families is not what America does. And I hope Jeff Sessions reverses that policy.

There really is no place for a country, for policies that are cruel and inhumane.

BLITZER: One final question, Congressman, before I let you go.

The president tweeted earlier in the day he will be announcing his final decision on the Iran nuclear deal tomorrow afternoon from the White House.

What are your fears if he decides to walk away from the deal?

LIEU: It would make negotiations with North Korea much more complicated.

If the North Koreans see that the United States pulls out from a deal where Iran is still complying with, then they're going to wonder, can they trust the United States in making a deal for the future?

I think that's one of the fears that not only North Korea has, but also many people in the world, because it does affect American credibility on an ongoing basis.

BLITZER: Congressman Ted Lieu, thanks, as usual, for joining us.

LIEU: Thank you, Wolf.

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