CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Secretary of State Nominee

Interview

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And Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky is joining us now.

Senator, I want to talk about your opposition to President Trump's nominees in one sec.

But, first, the news that former FBI Director McCabe, Andrew McCabe, has been fired, the president and his lawyer are both using this as an opportunity to talk about why they think the Mueller investigation should be ended immediately.

What would your response be if President Trump ordered the firing of Mueller?

PAUL: Well, I have said all along I don't like special prosecutors. I think they have too much power and too much power to go far afield of the question.

I do think, though, that we have a real problem, in that the FBI and our intelligence agencies have become politicized. And even our founding fathers recognized that bias would be a real problem. Madison said that men are not angels.

And that's why what I have been advocating is for is a bigger reform to a bigger question. And that is that nobody be should be left to their own devices, McCabe, Peter Strzok, Lisa Page. They shouldn't be allowed to search databases on Americans without first asking a judge.

So, this goes to a real reform question, not just the politics of the day, but a reform question. Should individual agents who may be biased against President Trump or may be biased against Hillary Clinton, frankly, should they be able to use the apparatus, this powerful apparatus, to politicize a process?

Now, this is a real problem. I think James Comey started this when he went after Hillary Clinton, frankly. And now it's turned its head, and now they're going after Trump.

Really, the FBI needs to stay out of political affairs. Do we want to be a banana republic, where every time someone leaves office, we're prosecuting the people who left office? I think it's a terrible thing, and it's really hurt the FBI.

And I think it started with James Comey, frankly.

TAPPER: Those are all cogent points, but just quickly, would it bother you if the president ordered the firing of Mueller?

PAUL: You know, I wouldn't advocate for it, but I would have never advocated for the appointment of a special prosecutor.

And people asked me recently, should there be one for McCabe and Peter Strzok and Lisa Page? And I have said no, because I think what we have discovered is, first when they went after Bill Clinton, now when they have gone after President Trump, that the prosecutor has too much power to do whatever they want.

And they're looking at people's tax returns from 20 years ago. I really think that it -- the power is so unlimited that it's worrisome for the people on the receiving end.

I really think General Flynn was treated unfairly. I think Andrew McCabe did worse than General Flynn, frankly. Andrew McCabe lied about doing something illegal. He leaked classified documents.

General Flynn apparently did not state the truth about something he did that was legal. So, you wonder, how are we going to make this fair, how are we going to make this just?

TAPPER: Let's get to those new nominations by the president for secretary of state and CIA director. You have said you're willing to do everything you can to block the nominations of Mike Pompeo for State and Gina Haspel for CIA.

What are your objections to the two? And what does it mean when you say you're going to do everything you can do to block them?

PAUL: Well, you know, the president, one of the things I liked about President Trump, and still do like, is that he continues to say the Iraq War was a mistake.

But when you say it's a mistake, basically, what you're saying is that regime change in the Middle East leads often to unintended consequences.

Well, he keeps appointing people around him who loved the Iraq War so much, that they're ready for a war with Iran next. And so I don't think you really want people who are eager for war to be running the State Department. You want a diplomat.

I, frankly, think that Pompeo's positions are too much of an advocate for regime change, really everywhere, North Korea, Iran, Russia, you name it. And I think, really, we need to see the world as it is. It doesn't mean we need to support what happens everywhere in the world.

But I don't think our policy ought to be for regime change. And so I think Pompeo really isn't a good fit to be a diplomat or to be the chief diplomat. With regard to Haspel, I think that, you know, what America stands for

is not torture. You know, torture is the hallmark of totalitarianism. We should be that hope for the rest of the world that people who -- you know, who want to resist totalitarianism, that, you know, they want to be free from torture; they don't want to be free to torture.

And so I really think that she -- it's inappropriate to put someone at the head of the CIA -- they have so much power, power to assassinate, power to spy, power to collect all the data on everyone in the world. I don't think the person running that agency should be someone who ran a secret prison in Thailand.

TAPPER: Will you filibuster these nominations on the Senate floor?

PAUL: I will do whatever it takes, and that includes filibuster.

I will try to make a point to the American people. And maybe the American people will rise up and say, you know, we stand in solidarity with those who -- who seek freedom from torture, not the freedom to torture.

It's just inconsistent with who we are as a people to have someone run our spy agency that has all this enormous power who was intimately involved with torture and, from everything we're reading, was supportive of the policy.

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And so, no, I can't support that. And I will do everything I can, including filibuster.

You know, a filibuster doesn't stop anyone. The only way I would stop anyone is if we convinced enough senators. And it would take actually a majority, I think, in this case to actually stop their appointment.

But when you read through the torture report that Senator Feinstein put forward, I would hope that she will stand up and say, enough is enough. We're not going to appoint people who made fun of the process.

And, really, one of the worrisome something about Gina Haspel is, she was also involved with destroying the tapes. There were actually videotapes of trying to drown these people and torture them. And these videotapes were destroyed years later.

So, first, she was involved with the water-boarding, and then years later, she was involved with destroying the tapes. There's no way in the world that she should be running our spy agencies, with all of their power.

TAPPER: And here's the pushback you're going to get.

Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming, the daughter of former Vice President Dick Cheney, tweeted about you this week, saying -- quote -- "Gina Haspel has spent her career defending the American people and homeland. Rand Paul is defending and sympathizing with terrorists" -- unquote.

Your response?

PAUL: You know, juvenile.

But I think the Cheneys, both father and daughter, could spend a lifetime trying to justify the thousands of soldiers, thousands of Iraqis who died in the Iraq War, which was an necessary war, made the Middle East less stable, emboldened Iran, and really have been wrong about every foreign policy decision of the last four years.

So, I think when they're done explaining why people had to die in Iraq, why people had to be maimed in Iraq, and why it really made the situation worse, the Cheneys can then stand up and try to make some points about other foreign policy.

But until they have proved that they know anything about the world, I think, probably, they ought to just be quiet.

TAPPER: Let's turn to what we learned on Friday when Facebook suspended the social media data firm Cambridge Analytica, which was used by President Trump's campaign.

It was revealed that the group fraudulently obtained private information from more than 50 million Facebook users.

You have talked a lot about the need for privacy, not only by -- from the government, but from corporations.

Do you think that the American people can trust that these massive social media companies can safeguard their privacy? And, if not, should there be regulation?

PAUL: I'm very concerned about privacy, primarily from the government, because I think the government takes it from you unwillingly.

The Internet does trade information. And so if you order a pair of shoes line, you will -- those shoes will pop back up if you didn't pick them. Or even if you did pick those shoes, you get more shoes.

So, there's a certain amount of personal information, but it's consistent with your agreements.

The main thing I say is that we ought to be very, very careful about the government collecting that data from private entities. With regard to private entities, they can break the law also. And I'm not sure of the specifics of this. People will have to look into it.

But whether or not it broke the law, absolutely, the privacy of the American consumer and the American individual should be protected.

TAPPER: Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, thank you so much, sir. Always good to see you.

PAUL: Thank you

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