MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Nunes Memo

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MADDOW: Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee this weekend were  finally able to get declassified and released a memo that they wrote about  the FBI`s counterintelligence investigation into the Russia scandal.

Joining us now is Congressman Jim Himes, member of the House Intelligence  Committee.

Congressman, really appreciate your time tonight. Thank you very much for  being here.

REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT), HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Good evening, Rachel.

MADDOW: I know it was a pain and a long process and a big fight to try to  get this memo declassified after the earlier Republican memo had been  declassified. Are you happy -- are you happy that this is out? Are you  satisfied in terms of what was redacted and what was released to the  public?

HIMES: Yes, I am. I mean, I sort of chuckled because, you know, of  course, the process to get the Republican memo out was all of, you know, 72  hours or so without -- you know, over the objections of the FBI. We wanted  to be a little bit more careful. We wanted to give the FBI and DOJ, the  Department of Justice, an opportunity to make sure we weren`t disclosing  additional classified information.

And, you know, lo and behold it got released on Saturday night. Not your  most intense news hours. I know what`s behind the redactions, and the good  news is that the information we needed to get out there and tell the story  that the Nunes memorandum was misleading at best, you can read our  memorandum and it`s pretty esoteric, it`s pretty technical. But, you know,  you can read our memorandum and see that the Nunes memorandum was just an  attempt to slime the federal bureau of investigation, the Department of  Justice without any real basis.

MADDOW: There`s a lot of information specifically about foreign policy  adviser to the Trump campaign, Carter Page, because the whole basis of the  Nunes memo was the application to a court for a surveillance warrant  against him.

But in explaining the further context that you guys put into that warrant  and the application for that surveillance, there`s a couple of very blunt  statements. There`s a couple places in this memo where information that is  redacted, which is about what Carter Page did in Moscow, is then followed  up with a blunt statement like this. Quote, this information contradicts  Carter Page`s testimony to the committee on November 2nd, 2017. And  there`s a whole bunch more redactions.

This also contradicts his sworn testimony to our committee. A lot of this  we can`t see the exact details because it is redacted, but there`s a clear  statement here that Carter Page lied under oath. Is that the way that we  should be reading that? Is that what this means here?

HIMES: Well, I chuckle a little bit because I was in the interview of  Carter Page and I`ve got to tell you, in the history of congressional  interviews of witnesses this one was unique, and I`m not disclosing  anything I shouldn`t disclose because the Carter Page testimony pursuant to  an agreement with him is available to the public. Look, in the testimony  that he gave to us, he contradicted himself in that testimony. You know,  we were asking and, again, you can look this up, about these trips to 

Russia and did he actually meet with anybody important. No, no, no. Oh  yes, except for those people in the most senior levels of the Russian government.

And the point here, Rachel, is that, you know, the premise of the Nunes  memorandum, of the Republican memorandum, is that there was, you know, an  abuse of the legal system by the FBI because they`re biased against Donald  Trump. Now, you remember what happened in the lead-up to the election in  terms of what Jim Comey was talking about in terms of investigation. So,  you start out with that being crazy. But then Carter Page, if he`s going  to be your victim, he`s going to be your victim that was sort of innocently  doing and going about his business when the FBI -- look, this is a guy who  as you pointed out the FBI had interest in for years, a guy who describes  himself, describes himself as an adviser to the Kremlin.

You know, I would argue, I guess, Devin Nunes did not maybe pick the most  lily white of people to say the FBI took an inappropriate interest in.

MADDOW: If the intelligence committee is aware of information that Mr.  Page did lie under oath, does the committee pursue that? Does the  Department of Justice pursue that? I mean, it`s a crime to lie to  Congress.

HIMES: Yes, yes, and again, this is a little bit of a hard one because,  you know, it was in his own testimony to us, he contradicted his own  testimony to us. I`ve never gotten a bead on Carter Page. You wonder  whether he`s actually -- you know, whether he`s just -- you know, what he`s  actually doing.

Look, we`ve got bigger issues to go after. I won`t try to prejudge what  the chairman or the ranking member might try to do. But, you know, as you  know Steve Bannon came before the committee and had this incredibly  expansive claim of executive privilege, couldn`t even ask him about the  transition when the president wasn`t president. So, we do have some pretty  big issues to deal with. I`m not sure that Carter Page`s contradictions  are at the top of the list.

MADDOW: Congressman Jim Himes, member of the House Intelligence Committee  -- thank you, sir. I appreciate having you here tonight.

HIMES: Thank you, Rachel.

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