Hearing of the House Subcommittee on Intelligence, Information Sharing, and Terrorism Risk Assessment: Building the Information Analysis Capability...

HEARING OF THE HOUSE SUBCOMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, INFORMATION SHARING, AND TERRORISM RISK ASSESSMENT: BUILDING THE INFORMATION ANALYSIS CAPABILITY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Mr. Thompson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am appreciative of you calling this hearing at this time. Even though we cannot
discuss the numbers for this department in open session, I think there are some issues that we need to get on the table real quick for the sake of the public.

I guess about 2 months ago, Ms. Lofgren and I had an opportunity to look at the vulnerabilities of our infrastructure by state. We were somewhat dismayed, Mr. Chairman, at how inconsistent that list was by state, and we are really concerned that somehow we have to have some standardization associated with that infrastructure list. As I understand it, there are some 85,000 vulnerabilities identified from miniature golf courses to shopping centers and what have you. But I am concerned about it, and I want to make sure that we address it this year so that we all, as members of this committee, can feel comfortable that those critical infrastructures in our districts clearly are being identified so that they can be protected.

In addition to that, I am concerned about this information sharing across the board, whether or not we have satisfactorily changed the culture of the department so that they are actually talking to each other. We hear comments all along about departments being territorial with their information, and if we are indeed protecting the homeland. We ought to make sure that
all those agencies involved in protecting us are communicating with each other. So I look forward to this hearing and many more around this subject. Obviously, I look forward to your testimony, General Hughes.

Thank you very much.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Mr. Thompson. Thank you, Mr. Cox.

General Hughes, can you provide this committee with a breakdown of those contractor services that we are paying for over and above normal personnel costs, as information that you get back to us? You do not have to comment on it. Just provide to us.

Lieutenant General Hughes. Yes, sir.

Mr. Thompson. To your knowledge, are you aware of any problems with any of those contracting services as of this date?

Lieutenant General Hughes. I am aware of some problems.

Mr. Thompson. You are?

Lieutenant General Hughes. Yes.

Mr. Thompson. Can you also provide this committee with a listing of those problems?

Lieutenant General Hughes. I will.

Mr. Thompson. Thank you.

With respect to the mapping the threat to vulnerabilities, what is your opinion of those vulnerabilities that have been identified, just in general? Do you think in your opinion those vulnerabilities meet the test of mapping? Do you think it is 50 percent complete? Just give me your honest opinion of it.

Lieutenant General Hughes. My honest opinion is that we are far from finished. Indeed, we are now using a term called ``complex urban environment.'' We are treating the major cities especially, but also the industrial outliers and some other parts of the United States that have a concentration of activity that is of interest to us, and we believe it might be of interest to the terrorists, as an organism, so that if you kick the shin of a large complex city, the city may also get a headache at the same time as the shin hurt, because the thing is so interconnected. It is very much like an animal or a human. The nervous system of the city may indeed be affected by a kinetic blow. That is an important concept. I know it sounds a little ethereal, perhaps, but it is not. It is a fact.

So probably the most common example of this is the electricity. You turn off the electricity, you turn off a lot of capability. If you turn the electricity off for a short period of time, you can live with it, not a problem. If you turn it off hard for a long period of time, we would have difficulty performing some of the functions we now take for granted.

So that is an example. The electricity itself is what you have to attack in order to do that, or the control mechanisms associated with it. That fact, that idea that a hospital, as an example, when it runs out of fuel and its alternate power source does not operate anymore, and the electricity is still off, means that that is a vulnerability you have to assess carefully.

If you did not assess it properly and have enough vision to see that after 3 days you were going to run out of fuel, there may not be a way to get more fuel because the pumps at the fuel station do not work because the electricity is off.

Mr. Thompson. Okay.

Lieutenant General Hughes. More than you wanted to know about it.

Mr. Thompson. Well, I just want to know if we identified he hospital as a potential target.

Lieutenant General Hughes. Absolutely.

Mr. Thompson. Yes, okay. With respect to your present position, have you any access to all intelligence available?

Lieutenant General Hughes. Yes, I have, but I have to tell you that not everyone who works for me has.

Mr. Thompson. What was the problem with others not having access to that information?

Lieutenant General Hughes. There is in the intelligence committee, it remains to this day, a culture in which a known person with a certain track record, having been polygraphed and background investigations done repeatedly over time, and a certain amount of dependability built into that background, and perhaps maybe you could even call it familiarization, the old-boy network, that culture has something to do with what level of trust and confidence others are willing to place in you.

Mr. Thompson. Mr. Chairman, if I could. So if Congress passes an Act mandating agencies to share information, do I understand you to say that that is still subject to whether or not certain individuals want to share that information with other agencies?

Lieutenant General Hughes. I probably would not put it quite like that. It is subject to the rules governing the information itself and who has access to it for what reasons.

Mr. Thompson. Mr. Chairman, I guess my point is, if we pass an Act saying that these agencies have to share this information between them, I am now hearing that there is some other standard out there somewhere that prevents that information being shared.

Lieutenant General Hughes. Let me just tell you, if I may respond to this, this always has been in the intelligence business in the government, something called the ``need to know.'' The ``need to know'' rule still applies, and for the most sensitive kinds of intelligence, about very specific activities, the ``need to know'' rule still is at work.

My personal view, by the way, is it should be. You should not tell everyone every single thing every single day. You should make sure that the key persons who are involved in this work know the essential issues each and every day, and I believe that has been done in my case.

Mr. Thompson. Well, I think we will probably have some more opportunities for discussion. Thank you.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_house_hearings&docid=20542.wais