ABC "This Week" - Transcript: Cuba

Interview

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GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, HOST: We're joined now by Florida Senator Marco Rubio.

Thanks for joining us this morning.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: Good morning.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You've been so outspoken this week, Senator Rubio, calling the president's decision inexplicable, absurd, disgraceful.

But when you hear those Cubans, those young Cubans say, we want closer ties to the United States, doesn't that give you pause?

RUBIO: I want closer ties with Cuba, as well, but those closer ties have to come about as a result of a policy that will also ultimately lead to freedom.

And that's my problem with what the president's done here. It's not that I simply want to continue to do with what we've been doing. I'm OK with changing policy toward Cuba.

But it has to be a policy change that has a reasonable chance of achieving freedom -- freedom for the Cuban people.

And I just don't think this pol -- no, let me rephrase that. I know that this policy change that the president has now undertaken will not lead to freedom.

STEPHANOPOULOS: How do you know that, though, Senator?

What we've seen for the last 50 years is a policy of -- of an embargo, no real ties between the U.S. and Cuba, it hasn't loosened the Castro regime's...

RUBIO: Right.

STEPHANOPOULOS: -- hold on the Cuban people at all. And the United States has -- has relations with all kinds of countries that don't meet our democratic standards -- China...

RUBIO: Right.

STEPHANOPOULOS: -- Saudi Arabia, Russia.

RUBIO: That's exactly my point. We have those policies of normalization toward Vietnam, for example, toward China. They're not any more politically free today than they were when that normalization happened. They may have a bigger economy, but their political freedoms, certainly I would not hold up China or Saudi Arabia or Vietnam as examples of political freedom, proving my point, that engagement by itself does not guarantee or even lead to political freedoms.

And that -- the Cuban government controls every aspect of their economy. The whole economy is owned and cooperated by a holding company controlled by Cuban military officials.

They will take more travel, they will take more commerce, they will pocket the vast majority of the money that's generated from it.

And they have already and they intend to follow the model of Vietnam and China, where they can grow their economy, but they don't grow political freedoms. In fact, they repress them.

STEPHANOPOULOS: But -- but wouldn't a the United States Embassy there help further that cause of openness?

You have actually said that the United States Embassy in China could be a direct link to the people of China.

Why can't a U.S. Embassy in Cuba be that same direct link to the people of Cuba?

RUBIO: I hope it would be, but there's two reasons why I believe it won't. The first is we already have an interest section in Havana which is pretty large and it's not allowed to operate. It's consistently harassed. Its diplomats are constantly harassed, including breaking in in the middle of the night to the -- to the facilities where they live. They're not allowed to engage with civil society openly. They're not allowed to travel.

They already operate under significant constrict -- restrictions.

And here's my second point and the piece that introduced our interview pointed this out. Roberta Jacobson, the assistant secretary of State for the Western Hemisphere, is going to travel to Cuba the second week in January and she's already made it very clear, human rights and freedom will not be on the agenda.

And so that is not very promising when the person at the State Department, who is in charge -- or will be in charge of this engagement, has already said that human rights will not be on the agenda in the first meeting.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Pope Francis played a pretty extraordinary role in all of this. And you spoke out about that earlier this week.

Let's take a look.

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STEPHANOPOULOS: Did you really mean to suggest that the pope hasn't taken up the cause of freedom and democracy?

RUBIO: Well, I was asked a question, what I would say to Pope Francis. And I would ask him to take up the cause of the freedom and liberty of the Cuban people, which is not part of...

STEPHANOPOULOS: Hasn't he done that?

RUBIO: -- this engagement.

I haven't heard those statements made. I know -- look, the pope is a spiritual leader and he always, naturally, is going to want to bring people closer together. And I respect that as a spiritual leader.

But I think it's also important to say that people deserve the right to be free. Our certain -- our nation was founded on that principle.

And, by the way, I'm encouraged that President Obama is so influenced by Pope Francis. Perhaps he will follow his lead on the sanctity of life and -- and on -- and on respect for religious liberties, as well.

STEPHANOPOULOS: That may be a debate for another day.

I want to get to the debate between you and Rand Paul inside the Republican Party right now.

You guys got in something of a Twitter war over the course of this week on this issue of Cuba. The latest one from Rand Paul saying, "Senator Marco Rubio is acting like an isolationist who wants to retreat to our borders and perhaps build a moat. I reject this isolationism. This seems to be a preview of the debate of 2016."

RUBIO: Well, first of all, Rand, if he wants to become the chief cheerleader of Obama's foreign policy, he certainly has a right to do that.

I'm going to continue to oppose the Opama -- Obama-Paul foreign policy on Cuba because I know it won't lead to freedom and liberty for the Cuban people, which is my sole interest here.

STEPHANOPOULOS: He's running hard for the nomination.

If he gets it, could you support Rand Paul and his foreign policy, if he were the Republican nominee?

RUBIO: Well, I anticipate -- I anticipate supporting whoever the Republican nominee is and I'm pretty confident that the Republican nominee for president will be someone who has a pretty forceful role -- view of America's role in the world as a defender of democracy and of freedom and also understands that it's important for America to be engaged on the global stage.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Jeb Bush out there already announcing this week that he's actively exploring a run.

Has he become the man to beat?

RUBIO: Jeb is going to be a very -- if he decides to run, he is going to be a very credible and a very significant candidate in this race. I have tremendous respect for him. So certainly, I think he's deserving of the attention he's receiving. Having worked alongside of him for many years, I can -- I think he would be a very credible and -- and a -- candidate, a very strong candidate.

STEPHANOPOULOS: A true conservative?

RUBIO: Yes, I mean Jeb has a record in Florida that people can look at. As I said, I mean I -- I think that Jeb is going to be a very credible, strong candidate if he decides to run.

STEPHANOPOULOS: He's also been a mentor of yours. We have that great photo of him handing you the sword when you became speaker of the House down in Florida.

I know you've said that his decision has no bearing on yours, but could you really imagine yourself running against him?

RUBIO: Well, first, let me say I think the presidential primaries are running against anyone. I would imaging the presidential field is going to be quite crowded and there will be multiple people running. And a -- and so, look, for me, the decision isn't based on anyone else, and that's not just exclusively Jeb, that's anyone else who would decide to run.

If someone makes the decision that the best place for them to serve their country, the best place for them to achieve, in my case, an agenda to restore the American dream, if I make the decision that the best place for me to do that is the presidency, then I'm going to run for president.

I haven't made that decision yet.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So why would you make a better president than Jeb Bush?

RUBIO: Well, I think ultimately, that first I have to make the decision that that's what I want to do, that that's the best place for me to serve the country at this time. And then I think that's why you have a primary. And that's the greatness about our system of government in comparison to what they have in Cuba, for example, where they don't get to choose their leaders.

We're going to go out. We would campaign, talk to people and ultimately, we wouldn't make that decision, voters would make that decision.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And what will your decision hinge on, finally?

What's going to determine whether you get in or not?

RUBIO: It basically, I have a very strong agenda I'm going to be talking about next year, as well, and it's about restoring the American dream. I truly believe it's what distinguishes us from the rest of the world.

But I think that the dramatic changes to our economy in 21st century have really placed enormous constraints on the middle class. And by the way, I have a book coming out in January, "American Dreams," that outlines that -- that agenda. And if I decide that the presidency is the best place for me to achieve that agenda, I'll run for president.

STEPHANOPOULOS: OK, Senator Rubio, thanks for joining us this morning.

RUBIO: Thank you, George.

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