CNN "The Situation Room" Transcript: San Bernardino Shooting

Interview

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BLITZER: Barbara Starr with the latest from the Pentagon, thank you.

Let's talk about the breaking news on terror with the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, Republican Congressman Mike McCaul of Texas.

Mr. Chairman, thanks very much for coming in.

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R), TEXAS: Thanks for having me, Wolf.

BLITZER: The FBI director, James Comey, you heard him say at least in part they now believe this terror attack in California was inspired by ISIS, but is it more than just inspired? Is there any evidence to suggest it was actually organized or directed by ISIS?

MCCAUL: Well, I think that's the ultimate question.

Malik, the black widow, if you will, what was she doing in Pakistan before she went to Saudi Arabia to apply for this fiancee visa? We do know after exploitation of the computer devices, that both of them had radicalized before they met on the Internet. And once they talked on the Internet, they talked about jihad.

They met in Saudi Arabia, went to the pilgrimage around the hajj, and then Mr. Farook decided to bring her back as his fiancee.

BLITZER: You're talking about the computers, the tablets that were found in the home partially destroyed that have now been reviewed by the FBI at Quantico and they have discovered important information on those tablets, those computers, right?

MCCAUL: Right.

And I think the good news is they attempted to destroy all this unsuccessfully. And so now we're exploiting that forensically to find out what the plot was, both prior to San Bernardino, and what was happening prior to them meeting.

And I think that's the unanswered question, as you saw the Senate ask the questions about, was she a planned operative by al Qaeda or ISIS to come over on a fiancee visa into the United States to carry out a terrorist event?

BLITZER: Was she?

MCCAUL: That's the unanswered question. Tomorrow, the House will have a classified briefing by the FBI director, secretary of homeland security.

BLITZER: And at that point, maybe they will know more about whether or not she was, what some are calling an ISIS bride, if you will.

She was jihad, just whether in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. He was radicalized out in California. And they met online, or somebody told them to meet online. And she came here with the intention of killing, is that...

(CROSSTALK)

MCCAUL: Correct. And we want to know if this is more than just online dating. Is there something more of a conspiracy behind this with respect to this being ISIS-directed?

We do know that she went to a school in Pakistan that has been reported to be a -- for -- somewhat radicalized madrasas, if you will, and that's something we're very interested in. And, tomorrow, we look forward to hearing about -- more about the computer forensics.

BLITZER: Tashfeen Malik, that's the woman, the wife, she actually got this fiancee visa to come to the United States because her husband, a U.S. citizen born in Chicago, Syed Farook. She was interviewed, I understand, by U.S. consular officials in Pakistan before she got that visa. What can you tell us about that?

MCCAUL: It's another security question. She was interviewed by ICE officials, by State Department. They

do a national security background check. And my question in an oversight capacity is, how thorough was that oversight or that national security investigation?

I think there are many things in her background that will come up as flags and warning signs that should have prevented her from getting this type of visa.

BLITZER: Because the person-to-person, the actual interview that she had in Pakistan to get that visa, that fiancee visa, you're suggesting was, what, inadequate?

MCCAUL: I think that's the big question is what took place during this interview? What information came out of that? What questions were asked?

BLITZER: Have you received the documentation from the State Department?

MCCAUL: No, we have not. And we will receive that in the briefing tomorrow, but those are questions I'm going to have, is, what information came out?

And how thorough, Wolf, was this -- the questioning? And it raises the issue with visas in general. National security background checks, should we expand the authorities in terms of how thorough these checks are?

BLITZER: If she got this fiancee visa to come to the United States with the direct intention to work with what turned out to be her husband to go ahead and plot some attacks against Americans, and it was all organized or arranged by ISIS or some other terrorist group, Lindsey Graham asked the FBI director, James Comey, that potentially could be a game changer.

MCCAUL: Well, because then that means that ISIS is directing operatives to get visas through a fiancee visa in this case to come into the United States to conduct terrorist operations.

Right now, the director is saying it's inspired. But we really don't know all the answers until we have gone through all the computers and all the forensics.

BLITZER: Chairman McCaul, I want you to stand by. I want to get into the whole issue of encrypted communications, other new developments that are emerging right now.

Much more with the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee when we come back.

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[18:17:37]

BLITZER: We're back with the House Homeland Security Committee chairman, Mike McCaul.

We're following the breaking news, official now telling CNN that the San Bernardino gunman, Syed Farook, and his friend, Enrique Marquez, plot an attack back in 2012, but they never actually carried it out. Marquez is the guy who bought two rifles used in last week's shooting rampage in California.

He's not been charged with any crime.

What can you tell us about this plot in 2012 that was never carried out for some reason?

MCCAUL: Well, my understanding is another plot was thwarted by the FBI that were associated with Mr. Farook and his associate that is now under investigation as part of the conspiracy as well.

And I think what happened was, once that takedown occurred...

BLITZER: It had nothing to do with these two guys?

MCCAUL: Well, we don't know that quite yet. And we will get more at the briefing tomorrow.

BLITZER: OK.

MCCAUL: But Mr. Farook and his associate who sold him the two AR-15s, I think, were spooked and backed down from that 2012 plot.

BLITZER: Were they engaged, the killers, in encrypted communications?

MCCAUL: At this point in time, we don't know.

But I would not be surprised, Wolf. As you reported early, the Garland, Texas, case involved over 100 encrypted messages to Junaid Hussain out of Raqqa, Syria, and just last week, this last week, ISIS now has developed their own encrypted app.

This is a serious issue for the FBI, for Homeland Security, for law enforcement. If you can't see what the terrorists are communicating, you can't stop that threat.

BLITZER: So this is a major development. If ISIS has its own encrypted app right now that allows its supporters, sympathizers to communicate, that's certainly something that would be hard to penetrate by the FBI or the NSA or U.S. law enforcement.

MCCAUL: Well, and, in fact, if we have a court order, a Title 3 wiretap, FISA, we still can't see the communications.

So, if someone in Raqqa is talking to someone in New York or Washington or Paris or Belgium, if you can't see what they are saying, you can't stop that act of terrorism. So, when they say there is no specific and credible information of a plot in the United States, it's hard to know that if you can't see what they are saying.

BLITZER: So, if ISIS has its own app for encrypted

communications, then these sympathizers or terrorists, they don't have to go to Google or Facebook or some other U.S. Internet company to get online, if you will, and use this encrypted communication technique.

MCCAUL: Correct. And we have no legal jurisdiction over this.

And this is actually a very frightening development, because it allows them to freely communicate without our ability to intercept.

BLITZER: That's a huge new development, because James Comey, the FBI director, has told me personally his biggest fear now, ISIS represents the major threat to the U.S. homeland, but the encrypted communications is a nightmare for the FBI.

MCCAUL: I agree with the director.

BLITZER: Completely. So you're satisfied with the way he's conducting the FBI's operations right now?

MCCAUL: Yes, I think Comey is doing a phenomenal job stopping over 70 followers, arresting them, 1,000 investigations in 50 states.

And he's onto this encryption issue. I think what we're trying to find is a technology solution to this very grave threat to the United States.

BLITZER: What's the theory now, why these two killers, husband and wife, actually went a week ago to that Christmas party and started killing people? They wound up killing 14 people, wounding 21 others.

MCCAUL: There are a lot of theories.

They basically had a pipe bomb factory in their garage. They had AR-15s, a lot of weapons, you know, thousands of rounds of ammunition. There are some theories that they got into an altercation at this party, came back with the weapons, decided to target the party.

There is speculation there may have been other targets that they were focused on prior to that holiday party.

BLITZER: But they are looking for other people who may have been part of this alleged plot? Is that what you're -- what I'm hearing?

MCCAUL: I think the main individuals you point out in your reporting is this individual Enrique, who was his associate back in 2012.

BLITZER: Are there others they're looking at right now too?

MCCAUL: I can't get into the net of the conspiracy at this point in time.

BLITZER: I raise the question because family members, the mother, for example, of the guy Syed Farook, she was actually living with them, so there is some suspicion maybe the parents, brothers or sisters, others may have known what was going on. Is that being investigated?

MCCAUL: They are obviously being investigated. They're looked at. They're being questioned as I speak.

It goes to a greater issue, Wolf, of identifying radicalization signs and then reporting it to authorities. In every one of these cases, whether it be San Bernardino, whether it be Chattanooga, Garland, all these cases have early warning signs.

The Boston bomber, early warning signs, got kicked out of the mosque for being so radical, and yet those were never reported to authorities. And that's why, I think, you know, seeing the early warning signs so is important to stopping it.

BLITZER: And very quickly, you believe that ISIS today represents a bigger threat to the U.S. homeland than al Qaeda did under bin Laden; is that right?

MCCAUL: I do, because they have a governing territory. They have exploited social media well beyond what bin Laden could do with caves and couriers.

And with 200 ISIS tweets per day, they have basically permeated society in a global way over the Internet, which is caused -- from 100 different countries, 30,000 foreign fighters going to Iraq and Syria, 5,000 of them with Western passports to get into the United States without a visa, which is why we passed the visa waiver bill that we passed in Congress yesterday.

BLITZER: You didn't even mention the vast amount of land, the size of the state of Indiana, and the more than $1 billion that they have collected. They are the richest terror group in history as well.

MCCAUL: And we have to stop the energy, these oil tankers driving into Turkey. We have got to stop giving leaflets in advance to warn them in advance.

BLITZER: Do you think Turkey is complicit?

MCCAUL: I can't say that for sure, but there are certainly -- there are issues regarding Turkey and whether or not they're profiting off this.

BLITZER: It's a serious problem. The president of the United States has mentioned that as well.

Mike McCaul, the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, thanks for coming in.

MCCAUL: Thanks, Wolf.

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