MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript: Sanctuary Cities and Crime, The Export Import Bank, the 2016 Presidential Election

Interview

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MATTHEWS: Senator Cruz, thanks for coming back on so soon after your
last visit here. I appreciate that. I just want to ask you a bigger
picture than the little kerfuffle at the border today, which could have
been anything, whatever it was or wasn`t anything.

What has Donald Trump got hold of here, in the biggest possible
picture? I don`t think it`s just immigration. What is it that is grabbing
the emotions, the thoughts, the hopes or whatever, the fears of the
Republican voter who`s talking to these pollsters?

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, listen, I like
Donald Trump. I appreciate that he`s focusing on illegal immigration.
It`s an issue I`ve been fighting a long, long time. I think people are
very concerned, for example, about the problems of sanctuary cities. And
that is something that -- that people are finally turning their attention
to.

You know, we had just this week in the Senate Judiciary Committee a
number of the family members of people who have been murdered by illegal
aliens with criminal convictions the Obama administration has released.

I had an exchange with the head of Immigration Enforcement under the
Obama administration where I asked her why the Obama administration in 2013
released 104,000 illegal aliens with criminal convictions, including 198
murderers, over 400 people accused of sexual assault, over 16,000 drunk
drivers.

She couldn`t give an answer, and I think people are understandable
very concerned that this administration refuses to enforce the law and is
releasing people with serious criminal convictions that shouldn`t be in
this country and are here illegally.

MATTHEWS: Are you against local cities like New York City under
Giuliani, where they basically didn`t turn in everybody every time there
was a police incident? Or how strong would you be in terms of turning
people in at the local level to ICE?

CRUZ: Look, sanctuary cities are wrong. The city of San Francisco,
we`ve seen the murder of Kate Steinle...

MATTHEWS: I saw that.

CRUZ: ... who was out on the pier, was short and murdered. San
Francisco`s a city that proudly calls itself a sanctuary city. With the
case of the illegal immigrant and career criminal who murdered Kate
Steinle, the federal government had put in what`s called a detainer, a
request that when he was released, they be notified so he could be
deported. And the city of San Francisco refused to honor that detainer,
violated, defied federal law, and Kate Steinle is dead because of it.

And I`ve joined with a number of senators in a common sense amendment
in the U.S. Senate to provide that federal funds will not be provided to
cities and local jurisdictions that defy, that actively frustrate federal
law, and that, in effect, release violent criminals to endanger the safety
and security of men and women across this country.

MATTHEWS: When somebody is arrested in a locale like San Francisco or
New York, do you think they should be -- if they`re arrested and they find
out that they`re not here legally, should they be turned over to the
immigration authorities?

CRUZ: I think we should enforce federal immigration laws. And I
think we should not have...

MATTHEWS: So cities should do it.

CRUZ: ... local officials...

MATTHEWS: Cities should turn them over.

CRUZ: I think we should comply with the law. You know, it`s an
amazing thing that people treat it as unusual that we should follow the
law. When I asked the head of Immigration Enforcement, why did the Obama
administration release 104,000 criminals...

MATTHEWS: Right.

CRUZ: ... people with separate criminal convictions who were here
illegally, she couldn`t answer me. You know, Chris, I asked the question,
how many murderers did the Obama administration release yesterday who was
here illegally?

MATTHEWS: OK.

CRUZ: She said, I don`t know. That ought to trouble anybody, anybody
with children...

MATTHEWS: Yes. Well, maybe you should...

CRUZ: ... that doesn`t want murderers on the streets.

MATTHEWS: Maybe you should talk to -- I think you should talk to Rudy
Giuliani about this because the urban officials, like mayors of bit cities,
they`re afraid, I think they`ve learned to be afraid, that if you turn
everybody you deal with over to ICE, to the immigration authorities, you
won`t get any cooperation from the communities in getting information.
They`ll just see you as the deporters.

Isn`t that a danger to consider, or not?

CRUZ: I will suggest the very simple principle that we should enforce
the law and we should keep violent criminals off the streets.

MATTHEWS: OK.

CRUZ: So in 2013, 16,000 people with drunk driving convictions...

MATTHEWS: Right.

CRUZ: You know, imagine if your loved one, if someone in your family
was killed by a drunk driver that the federal government had in custody,
who was here illegally, and they simply released that drunk driver -- the
testimony at the hearing in the Senate -- we heard testimony from a man...

MATTHEWS: Right. But...

CRUZ: ... whose brother was killed by a drunk driver that had been
released by the government. It doesn`t make any sense.

MATTHEWS: But you`re coloring the immigration issue heavily in the
area of crime. Do you think it`s fair to say that when you`re talking
about immigration, to quickly to go the issue of crime levels in big
cities? Do you think they`re related that closely?

CRUZ: Well, I`m focusing very directly on illegal aliens with
criminal convictions. When the Obama administration releases 104,000
illegal aliens, all of whom had a separate criminal conviction -- yes,
there`s a direct connection there. When you release 193...

MATTHEWS: Right.

CRUZ: ... illegal aliens with homicide convictions, yes, there`s a
direct connection there.

MATTHEWS: Well, I agree with that, of course. Let`s go back to the
latest polling here. It`s fascinating. Look at the "Washington Post"/ABC
poll. Donald Trump is up there, and many others are down. Trump`s up by
20 points just since May, just a few weeks ago, while Rand Paul`s down 5,
you`re down 4. Rubio, Christie and Santorum are down 3.

And so there`s an old -- remember, Gresham`s law from economics, Bad
money drives good money out of circulation? What`s it feel like to be
driven out of circulation? Because everybody else seems to be pushed down
while Trump goes up. Is that good for the Republican Party?

CRUZ: Well, I`ll tell you, what we`re seeing on the ground is
enormous support and enthusiasm from the grass roots. You know, everyone
just filed their fund-raising records. Out of 16 Republican candidates,
you know which candidate may (ph) raise the most hard money of the entire
field? We did. We raised...

MATTHEWS: I know.

CRUZ: ... $14.3 million. We beat Jeb Bush, who`s in second place
with $11.3 million. And what`s amazing, Chris, is that came from 175,000
contributions in all 50 states, all five territories. The average
contribution was $81.

It came from roughly half the zip codes in America. And I`ll tell you
why. People are looking for someone who will stand up to the Washington
cartel. Right now, I`m in the Senate. And the reason is, we`re having a
fight over the Export Import Bank, a classic example of corporate welfare.
And let me say, Chris, your party, the Democrats, who use...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ... thank you.

CRUZ: ... a lot of rhetoric about opposing big business and big money
-- the Democrats, virtually all of them, are supporting this cronyism and
corporate welfare. The one person who`s standing up strong is Bernie
Sanders. This is an issue where Bernie and I are in complete agreement.
We need to end this corporate welfare. But far too many Democrats -- and I
will readily admit far too many Republicans -- are supporting hundreds of
billions of dollars of loan guarantees to giant corporations at the expense
of the taxpayers.

I think people are fed up with that. They want someone who will stand
with the working man and woman against the bipartisan corruption of
Washington!

MATTHEWS: Is that a strategy on the right to build up Bernie Sanders?

CRUZ: Well, I`ve said for a long time, I like and respect Bernie
Sanders...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ... you`re building him up. You just did it. You took an
opportunity for a call-out there to build -- what is the strategy to build
up Bernie Sanders from the right-wing perspective? You`re right wing...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ... now that we`re identifying each other.

CRUZ: I respect honesty in politics.

MATTHEWS: OK.

CRUZ: Bernie admits he`s a socialist. We can have an honest
debate...

MATTHEWS: Well, he is a socialist! (INAUDIBLE) admit. You admit
you`re a Tea Party guy. That`s not an admission, it`s a fact.

CRUZ: But the difference is I think there are an awful lot of
Democrats in the United States Senate whose policies are every bit as
liberal or every bit socialist as Bernie`s, but they don`t admit it.

I`m enjoying watching Hillary Clinton explain to the voters how she`s
just as much of a socialist as Bernie Sanders. I`d rather an honest
debate...

MATTHEWS: Well, that would be a mistake, and you know that would be a
mistake and that`s why you`re saying it. If she goes out there and matches
Bernie and lets her -- lets him lead her around, she`ll end up looking and
sounding like him, which will take her from the center.

CRUZ: Well...

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you...

CRUZ: ... but -- but -- but Chris...

(CROSSTALK)

CRUZ: Let me ask you a question on this. We were talking about the
Export Import Bank. The reason I focused on Bernie Sanders is that he`s
one of the few Democrats with the courage to stand against it.

Let me point out another Democrat that had the courage to stand
against it, then senator Barack Obama. When he was a senator, he said the
Export Import Bank is a classic example of corporate welfare. Now that
he`s president, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party,
they get contributions from big lobbyists...

MATTHEWS: OK...

CRUZ: ... in Washington. Now he`s for corporate welfare. Bernie is
being honest about this, and I wish both...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You are building him up! I mean, you`re getting so
enthusiastic. I know what you`re up to. It`s called trouble-making.

Let me ask you about your party. We`re watching how this debate`s
working out, top 10 -- Roger Ailes (INAUDIBLE) top 10 limit. Some are in,
some are out. What happens if the convention next summer picks Jeb Bush
and John Kasich to be your ticket, and the other side picks Hillary Clinton
and Sherrod Brown? So you got two -- you got two centrist tickets, at
least at the top.

Isn`t that going to drive the Tea Party crazy, crazy that you`ve been
cut out of...

CRUZ: Let me -- let me...

MATTHEWS: ... the presidential (INAUDIBLE)

CRUZ: Let me be clear, by the way. No one in their right mind would
describe Hillary Clinton and Sherrod Brown as a centrist ticket. That
would be a far-left ticket. And let me clear also, if that race...

MATTHEWS: Really? Hillary Clinton`s far left?

CRUZ: ... Hillary and -- Hillary and Sherrod would win because you`d
turn out the far-left base and millions of conservatives would stay home.
That race would make you very happy, Chris, because the way for
Republicans...

MATTHEWS: You are beating the drum for Bernie Sanders and Sherrod
Brown tonight! This is your game! I know what -- you`re trying to get
Hillary out of position, go chase them (ph).

I`m asking you, are you in a position to decide between a third party
candidate of the Tea Party people if you have to take on Jeb Bush in a
general election because you`re stuck outside the contest? If you get a
Jeb Bush in there, you can`t vote for Bush.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You`d never vote for Bush!

CRUZ: Listen, I`ll be -- I`ll be unequivocal. I am not a third party
guy. I am running in the Republican Party. I will support the Republican
nominee. But if we nominate another candidate in the mold of a Bob Dole or
a John McCain or a Mitt Romney -- all of whom are good, honorable men, but
what they did didn`t work. If we do it again, the same millions of
conservatives who stayed home in `08 and `12...

MATTHEWS: Right.

CRUZ: ... will stay home in `16, and Hillary wins.

MATTHEWS: Well, just to tie up that thought, and you`ve been very
clear tonight, is Jeb Bush in that mold?

CRUZ: You know, I`m going to let him speak for himself and the
Republican primary voters answer that. I agree with Reagan. The way we
win is we paint in bold colors, not pale pastels.

And I`ll tell you something that`ll worry you, Chris. As I travel the
country all over the place, men and women stop me who say, I`m a Democrat,
but you`re fighting for me and I`m with you.

MATTHEWS: OK.

CRUZ: That`s something that`s got to terrify heck out of a lot of
Democrats. We saw...

MATTHEWS: OK.

CRUZ: ... in the last 50 years, there`s one Republican who has a
group of Democrats named after him, Reagan Democrats. When you paint in
bold colors, you build a broad coalition.

MATTHEWS: Well, you`re a Bernie Sanders Republican, from what I`ve
heard tonight.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: But thank you for coming on. I understand entirely the
strategy you`re up to. Senator Ted Cruz...

CRUZ: Thank you, Chris.

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