MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript: Cuban Regime, Confirmation of Chuck Hagel, Supreme Court Politics
Interview
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Matthews: ...Texas senator Ted Cruz -- he`s author of a new
book, "A time for Truth: Reigniting the Promise of America." There he is,
and we have him with us tonight.
Thank you so much. You know, you have a fascinating background.
You`re the son of immigrants. You`ve gone from a guy who came here with
nothing, right?
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes.
MATTHEWS: Your dad, who you obviously love, without a buck in his
pocket. You`re born. You went to Princeton. That`s a good school, right?
CRUZ: So I`m told.
MATTHEWS: OK, it`s a good school. You became a great debater. You
went to Harvard law, you did all that stuff, United States senator in one
big stump.
Let me ask you about this thing about Trump. Now, Trump is out there
still playing the birther card. And I just want to get your reaction to
some news today in an interview he did. Let`s watch him again today
expressing skepticism about whether the president of the United States is
actually a natural-born citizen of this country.
Let`s watch him here.
( VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, he`s sticking to his guns on that. On the day you
announced your candidacy, Senator, Trump also said your birthplace -- well,
you were born in Calgary, I guess your father was working up there, father
and mother at the time up in Canada -- could be a hurdle for your campaign.
Let`s watch him here.
( VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, actually, "natural-born" means that you were born to
American parents. You don`t have to be naturalized. I think you`re
completely in the clear here, as I believed from the beginning the
president is, because Trump, he has never said that the mother of Barack
Obama is not the mother of Barack Obama.
But what do you think of the fact he still says it`s a hurdle for you?
And by the way, you`re quite open about how you grew up and where you were
born.
CRUZ: Well, sure. Sure. Now, look, I like Donald Trump. You know,
there are a lot of folks in Washington right now that seem to be crawling
all over themselves to smack Donald Trump. I`m not one of them. I think
he`s bold, I think he`s brash, and I think he`s got backbone. I think
he...
MATTHEWS: Well, why does he say stuff about you?
CRUZ: You know, look...
MATTHEWS: Why does he say it`s a hurdle for you, when no one else is
causing you trouble? And by the way, George -- who is it -- Romney, George
Romney, was born in Mexico to American parents. John McCain was born in
the Canal Zone. Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona, a territory at the
time.
CRUZ: Right. Right.
MATTHEWS: Nobody made a beef about that.
CRUZ: Yes, look, the legal question is quite straightforward, that
the child of a U.S. citizen born abroad is a natural-born citizen. As you
noted, my mom was Irish and Italian, born in Wilmington, Delaware. And
when I was born in Calgary, I was a citizen by birth. I`ve never breathed
a breath of air on earth...
MATTHEWS: Yes. So you are black Irish. This is great! Anyway, a
lot of your book has to do with a very powerful theme, which is about --
and I agree with you on this completely -- the betrayal of the Cuban
revolution.
When I was a kid and Castro came to New York after knocking because
off Batista, coming in, he was in pajamas. He had his interview with
Edward R. Murrow and everything. We rooted like hell for him. He was a
democratic successor to a horrible dictatorship. And he betrayed all of
us.
Has that got a lot to do with your politics?
CRUZ: Well, it certainly has a lot to do with my passion. You know,
I mean, what I describe in the book, "A Time for Truth," is -- I begin with
my family`s story and my dad, my great-grandparents coming to Cuba, my
grandfather growing up on a sugar plantation and my dad as a teenager
joining with Castro and the revolution.
MATTHEWS: He believed in it, in the beginning.
CRUZ: He did. Now, none of the kids knew that Castro was a
communist. They knew that Batista was corrupt, he was a dictator, he was
in bed with the mob. As you know, as my dad describes it today, the
revolutionaries were a bunch of 14-year-old boys that didn`t know any
better.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CRUZ: And so my father ended up -- he was thrown in prison when he
was 17 and he was tortured in Cuba. You know, one of the things I have in
the book is his mug shot with his nose broken...
MATTHEWS: Yes, I know.
CRUZ: ... where, you know, Cuban soldiers -- they`d come in every few
hours and beat him with billy clubs and shattered his teeth, broke his
nose. And then when he fled Cuba, it was `57 and he was just 18. He
couldn`t speak English.
MATTHEWS: You also talk about how your aunt was sexually attacked.
You were very careful about it, and respectful, but that`s another problem
with Castro.
CRUZ: Oh, it was...
MATTHEWS: A serious problem.
CRUZ: And our family`s story reflects that of a lot of people in
Latin America. When my dad fought with Castro, `59, the revolution
succeeds, Castro declares as a communist, begins executing people, seizing
their lands.
And my aunt, my fiasolina (ph), who I call my fialoca (ph) -- she was
still there, and she fought in the counterrevolution against Castro. She
would with her friends burn down sugar cane fields. And she ended up being
thrown in prison and tortured by Castro`s goons.
MATTHEWS: How do you feel now, or how do you believe, think now about
it? We`re opening up diplomatic relations. We`re going to have an
ambassador there. You`re going to vote against the ambassador, though.
CRUZ: I most certainly will.
MATTHEWS: I knew that -- I figured that was coming. Will you ever go
to Cuba as long as Fidel and Raul are running the place?
CRUZ: You know, I don`t know. I`ve never been. I certainly look
forward to going...
MATTHEWS: Would you go back, as a principle, while they`re still
there?
CRUZ: You know, I disagree with the Obama administration`s approach
to opening up Cuba. I think it`s the same type of approach that this
administration has had to Russia...
MATTHEWS: I know.
CRUZ: ... and to Iran, that it`s dealing with our enemies with
weakness. And I think the consequence of...
MATTHEWS: Well, a lot of people are -- not everybody -- I agree
there`s some people on the left who may take that point of view. And I
don`t think Obama -- I don`t know what he believes, but I think -- a lot of
people believe opening up to Cuba to freedom and to commerce and free
enterprise is going to bring down the communist government. You don`t
think that.
CRUZ: You know, I don`t, particularly because the way the rules are
set, all the money goes into the government. So billions of dollars are
going to flow into the Castros` bank books.
You know, each chapter of the book, "A Time for Truth," features a
truth teller.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CRUZ: And the very first truth teller that I feature is a gentleman
named Guellermo Farinas (ph), who is a Cuban dissident. He used to be a
communist soldier for Castro. His nickname was El Coco, still is.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CRUZ: And he`s been on hunger strikes, he`s been in prison, he`s been
tortured. About a year ago, he came to the States. I interviewed him...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CRUZ: ... and another dissident in Spanish for about a half hour, and
he shared his story. He predicted what Obama would do. And he said, Don`t
do it, it will strengthen the Castros, and they will only be...
MATTHEWS: So you don`t think the influence of, say, modern cars
coming into the country, not just `57 Chevys -- those are great cars, but
that`s all they have their now -- the influence of people coming in with
new technology, new phone systems. They`re going to come in with money.
The Cuban people (INAUDIBLE) what the hell have we been missing here?
Because that`s what really turned the East Germans into being wanting to be
part of the West. They saw how the West Germans were living on TV.
CRUZ: Well...
MATTHEWS: You`re saying that won`t work.
CRUZ: We can always hope and pray. But it seems to me that the Obama
administration should have used some leverage. So for example, the
opposition, the dissidents, are still being picked up.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CRUZ: They`re still being tortured and they`re still being...
MATTHEWS: It`s a communist country.
CRUZ: ... imprisoned. And we`ve gotten effectively nothing in
exchange for billions of dollars. It`s much the same as what we`re doing
with Iran, sending billions of dollars to that nation again in a way that`s
undermining our national security.
MATTHEWS: Let`s -- we don`t have a whole lot of time. I want to talk
about the book. You said some stuff in the book that I completely agree
with from a different -- from a more liberal position.
When you first got into the Senate leadership lunches, and you
realized it was all a game, that basically, the job was to protect the
party, protect the leadership. And so you discovered it wasn`t about
stopping debt ceiling from rising, it was about avoiding responsibility for
doing it.
CRUZ: Yes. Yes.
MATTHEWS: So all they want to do is lower the threshold to 51 votes
so it wouldn`t be 60, and then they could all vote against it and let the
Democrats pass it.
CRUZ: Yes.
MATTHEWS: By the way, when I first came to work on the Hill with the
Senate, the Democratic leadership then would pass these spending limits,
iron-clad spending limit of $285 billion, and then they`d pass two
amendments exempting entitlements and then exempting any kind of
appropriation that went higher.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: So the games are being played. But what about campaign
financing? I mean, you`ve got a big PAC out there, like everybody else,
with all this money coming in, $37 million. And the American people are
supposed to believe that the guy who`s running, who`s benefiting from the
PAC money, doesn`t know anything about how it`s being raised, doesn`t even
know the guy running it.
But you know the guy. His name is Dathan Bolter (ph). How do you
avoid ever meeting him, winking at him, talking to him to keep non-
collaboration?
CRUZ: Well, let me take...
MATTHEWS: Because that`s what people wonder about. They think it`s a
joke. Is it a joke?
CRUZ: Let me take those two one at the same time. I want to start...
MATTHEWS: Start with the Senate leadership, if you want.
CRUZ: Well, yes. You mentioned what happened with the debt ceiling,
and the opening chapter of the book describes what happens behind closed
doors in the Republican lunch.
MATTHEWS: I thought it was a good chapter.
CRUZ: And it`s entitled "Mendacity." It really highlights what I try
to do. Look, I recognize not a lot of your viewers are likely to be Ted
Cruz fans. But if your viewers are wondering, All right, why is this guy
fighting for what he`s fighting for, if your viewers are wondering what
happens, what happens behind closed doors in the Senate, what this book
tries to do is really shine a light on the corruption, on the role of
money, and it takes on both parties.
MATTHEWS: So you`re saying this is a good book to buy.
CRUZ: Well, I`m certainly encouraging folks to buy --
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: By the way, that part of the book I completely agree with.
But campaign financing to me...
CRUZ: Yes. Yes.
MATTHEWS: ... has gotten to be this sort of double game. Well, I
only take so much from my campaign, $2,700 a head. But all this guy money
comes in. It`s not marked. Nobody knows who it is. Isn`t that part of
the corruption?
CRUZ: Look...
MATTHEWS: Is that part of the corruption?
CRUZ: Absolutely. And the current system makes no sense. Right now,
most of the candidates in this race, the bulk of their money is in super-
PACs where it`s illegal to coordinate. Who in their right mind -- I mean,
as the result of this race, I`m not allowed to talk to folks who are going
to be spending more money communicating my message than I am. That`s
idiocy!
MATTHEWS: Well, it`s a joke, though, because you write a speech, you
give a speech, and they know what your message is and they put it on
television. This idea of secrecy or non-collaboration`s a joke!
CRUZ: Well, and that`s why I introduced legislation that was called
the Super-PAC Elimination Act of 2014. And what it does is real simple.
It would allow unlimited contributions from individuals...
MATTHEWS: Right.
CRUZ: ... directly to campaigns and require immediate disclosure
within 24 hours.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CRUZ: Now, that actually -- you`d have sunshine, you`d have sunlight,
and the difference would be super-PACs effectively would go away because
people would give to campaigns, and that way, Hillary could communicate her
message from her supporters, and we could all talk about -- if someone
gives a gazillion dollars to a candidate, we could talk about, OK, are they
on the take?
But I believe in more speech and more sunlight is the best thing for
democracy.
MATTHEWS: OK, you went after Chuck Hagel when he went up for the
nomination on the issue of disclosure. And you said you wanted to know
where his money came from. And then in the book here -- another reason to
read the book -- you said it was a mistake to say he may have gotten the
money from North Korea.
CRUZ: So I...
MATTHEWS: I mean, that`s a communist government, and he did fight the
communist in Vietnam. He had two Purple Hearts for fighting the
communists, and you`re saying he took money from the communists, which was
a pretty strong charge. You`ve said it was a mistake.
CRUZ: Well...
(CROSSTALK)
CRUZ: ... say that, but I do talk about a number of things...
(CROSSTALK)
CRUZ: I did say that I thought it was a mistake to mention North
Korea, but...
MATTHEWS: Of course! Have you apologized to him for that? Have you
ever said, Chuck, I`m sorry for calling you on the take with the
communists?
CRUZ: Well, but I didn`t. And one of the things I walk through in
the book...
MATTHEWS: I read the -- I`ve got it underlined!
CRUZ: ... is this...
MATTHEWS: You said -- look, by the way, under libel laws -- and
you`re the lawyer -- you can`t just say, Did you take the money from the
communists? You can`t do that.
CRUZ: You know, John Adams famously said facts are stubborn things.
MATTHEWS: Right.
CRUZ: What this book does is describe the facts.
MATTHEWS: OK.
CRUZ: The background with Hagel -- and I don`t know -- I didn`t know
Hagel. Most of my colleagues...
MATTHEWS: Well, let`s take a look at what you said at his
confirmation hearing -- here it is -- when he`s up for secretary of
defense.
( VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: From North Korea. And here`s what you wrote in your book.
"In hindsight, I made a mistake when I uttered the words North Korea.
There was no credible reason anyone would believe that Hagel had received
funds from North Korea."
CRUZ: But there was credible reason to believe he may have received
funds from a foreign government.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CRUZ: And the reason is, I along with 25 other senators, sent him a
letter asking him to disclose his income. Now, I`ll point out that`s the
same question that was asked of Hillary Clinton, and she willingly gave
over seven years. It`s the same question Harry Reid asked Henry Kissinger,
and...
MATTHEWS: Yes. But they didn`t accuse someone of taking money from a
communist government.
CRUZ: But the difference...
MATTHEWS: That`s different!
CRUZ: But Chris, what you never mentioned on your TV shows when you
were blasting me for that...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CRUZ: ... is that Hagel responded in writing there were seven funds,
seven checks he`d received.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CRUZ: Six of them, he said, I can represent they didn`t come from a
foreign government. The seventh, for $200,000, he said, I cannot tell you
if they came...
MATTHEWS: That`s in the book too.
CRUZ: ... from a foreign government. So he said in writing...
MATTHEWS: Look, we agree. You shouldn`t have said North Korea.
Let`s move on. Do you agree?
CRUZ: But -- it was a tactical mistake because it enabled Democrats
to change the subject. Look, I still think it`s ridiculous that senators
and the media did not care that a nominee for secretary of defense said in
writing he may have received money...
MATTHEWS: Yes, but...
CRUZ: ... from a foreign government, and nobody cared to at least
ask, Did you, in fact, receive...
MATTHEWS: But your reputation preceded you there because everyone
knows you`re a very, very zealous anti-communist, which is good. And when
you mentioned North Korea, people said sounds like he`s accusing him of
being on the take from the communists. This is serious business, putting
that together. Don`t you agree?
CRUZ: But I`ll read you the excerpt that you showed. What I said in
full is, I said, listen, in writing, he has raised the inference that he
may have received money from a foreign country. And I said, Look, there
are contexts in which no one would care. If he received money from Canada
for a lumber dispute, nobody would care.
MATTHEWS: No.
CRUZ: That would not be an issue, and...
MATTHEWS: I know, but you suggested...
CRUZ: And then I said, On the other hand...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: ... enemy.
CRUZ: If he received money from some other countries, and I mentioned
Saudi Arabia...
MATTHEWS: OK.
CRUZ: ... and foolishly -- the reason I mentioned North Korea...
MATTHEWS: I know. It`s in the book.
CRUZ: ... it was news then.
MATTHEWS: That`s right. Let me ask you about...
CRUZ: But that was a mistake because it let Democrats change the
subject, and so I admit that was a mistake.
MATTHEWS: Well, I don`t think you changed the subject. I think it is
the subject. Anyway, let`s talk about the election. In the 2000 election,
you had a bill role in the recount. We covered it here. It was the best
thing I ever covered. I never liked covering anything like the recount.
But you bring the Supreme Court into it, which you were happy as a
lover of the Supreme Court then. You brought them in. They basically said
the state lost its rights to recount (INAUDIBLE) because of equal
protection.
Now -- now, on the issue of marriage equality, you say no equal
protection, leave the states alone. So how do you be consistent there?
Are you consistent or inconsistent on equal protection?
CRUZ: Listen, I believe I`m very consistent. And one of the things I
describe in the book is how I`ve spent my entire adult life fighting to
defend the Constitution. It`s been a passion...
MATTHEWS: And the court.
CRUZ: ... literally since...
MATTHEWS: And the Supreme Court.
CRUZ: ... I was a teenager...
MATTHEWS: You`ve always been pro-Supreme Court.
CRUZ: Well...
MATTHEWS: Until now.
CRUZ: I revere the court. As you know...
MATTHEWS: Yes. OK.
CRUZ: ... I was a law clerk to Chief Justice Rehnquist.
MATTHEWS: (INAUDIBLE) in the book. As you would say, it`s in the
book. And this is even the book, by the way, it`s "A Time for Truth."
I really think it`s important to read it. Now you`re for retention
elections. You`ve had to raise a ton of money to run for president, and
you`re definitely in the running. You`ll be in the debates and everything.
Should judges have to go out and raise $37 billion to run for reelection?
How can you put judges out there and make them politicians?
CRUZ: Listen...
MATTHEWS: They won`t be an independent judiciary.
CRUZ: I am reluctant to call for retention elections. It makes me
sad.
MATTHEWS: But you`ve done it!
CRUZ: But I have done it because I believe that a majority of the
justices are not honoring their judicial oaths. And...
MATTHEWS: Is that the solution, elections?
CRUZ: Look, if unelected judges are going to seize every major policy
issue of this country -- you know, there was a time...
CRUZ: They seized the presidency in 2000 and you did not complain!
The Supreme Court said no to the state of Florida. You can`t recount!
Even though it`s a close election, you are not allowed to recount. We`re
giving this to our guy, 5 to 4 Republican vote in the Supreme Court. If
there was ever a case of partisanship or ideology getting out of hand, it
was 2000, and you loved it!
CRUZ: Chris...
MATTHEWS: You loved it! You were cheering, you said in the book!
CRUZ: Chris, those are great talking points.
MATTHEWS: But they`re true.
CRUZ: How many times did they count the ballots in Florida?
MATTHEWS: Four.
CRUZ: Four times. How many times did Bush win?
MATTHEWS: Four times.
CRUZ: Four times.
MATTHEWS: They wanted to try it one more time.
CRUZ: Yes, the...
MATTHEWS: Aren`t states allowed to do that?
CRUZ: The Democrats` strategy was, We`re going to keep counting and
counting and counting and counting, and eventually, maybe enough people
will cheat and somehow our guy will win. After four times...
MATTHEWS: How do you know they`re going to cheat?
CRUZ: After four times...
MATTHEWS: OK. OK. I just think it`s a case of states` rights, which
you usually champion, and equal protection, which is the first time in the
history Republicans championed equal protection, and then they`ve lost
interest in it now...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: ... marriage equality.
CRUZ: I describe how the first time the Supreme Court unanimously
vacated what the Florida supreme court...
MATTHEWS: OK. OK.
CRUZ: ... did when it came down -- you know what the Florida Supreme
Court did?
MATTHEWS: Right.
CRUZ: It told the U.S. Supreme Court go jump in a lake, didn`t even
cite its opinion!
MATTHEWS: I know, but they...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: They wanted to continue with the recount under the decision
of the legislature.
CRUZ: It was partisan defiance of the court. And frankly, what the
Florida supreme court did in the Bush versus Gore recount is the same thing
the U.S. Supreme Court did with "Obama care."
MATTHEWS: You have a very, very good-looking family here, by the way,
I just say.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: This is -- the back of the book here is better than the
front, actually.
(LAUGHTER)
CRUZ: You`re very kind, and I`ve said many times thank God my girls
look like their mother.
MATTHEWS: OK. Please come back. We`ll continue with this...
CRUZ: Thank you, Chris.
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