NBC News " Meet The Press " - Transcript : Trans-Pacific Partnership
Interview
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SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Good morning.
CHUCK TODD:
You've based much of your campaign on economic issues, economic inequality. And recently, you apologized for the lack of foreign policy substance on your own website. And I noted there's nothing on Syria, nothing on ISIS, Iraq, and on terrorism. You do have something on the Iran deal.
So I want to focus a little bit on that this morning. Let's start with the refugee crisis. How many refugees do you think the United States should take in? The United Nations wants up to 65,000 Syrians placed here in the United States. Is that a proper number?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
I think it's impossible to give a proper number until we understand the dimensions of the problem. What I do believe is that Europe, the United States and, by the way, countries like Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, must address this humanitarian crisis. People are leaving Iraq, they're leaving Syria with just the clothes on their backs. The world has got to respond. The United States should be part of that response.
CHUCK TODD:
when it comes to Syria, how much of the problem of this micro-crisis is the United States' fault, of policy, whether Bush in Iraq or Obama in Syria?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Look, I voted against the war in Iraq. And if you want to go to YouTube, find what I said when I voted against that war. And sadly, I'm not happy about this, Chuck, but what you will find is much of what I feared would happen, in fact, did happen: Massive destabilization in that region.
So I think, clearly, the issue now is not who is at fault. The issue is now what we do. And what we do is bring the region together, countries like Saudi Arabia, which has the third largest military budget in the world, Turkey, other countries are going to have to get their hands dirty, going to have to get on the ground in taking on ISIS. I believe strongly the United States, the U.K., France, other countries, should be supportive. But I disagree that the United States should have combat troops in that area. I fear very much that we will be in perpetual warfare in that region. I do not want to see that occur.
CHUCK TODD:
You have said that you're not opposed to military action under certain circumstances. And in fact, you voted-- the one time you voted for military action, I believe, in your career, had to do with Kosovo, which was a humanitarian crisis. Are we at that point, that Syria is such a humanitarian crisis that actually it does justify some military action to stabilize that country?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
No. I voted also for the war in Afghanistan.
CHUCK TODD:
Yes, sir, I apologize for that, yes, you did. Yeah.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Because I believe that Osama bin Laden needed to be captured, needed to be brought to trial. But let me be very clear. I am very concerned about a lot of the war talk that I'm hearing from my Republican colleagues, who apparently have forgotten the cost of war and the errors made in Afghanistan and Iraq.
And what I believe, Chuck, very much, is that the most powerful military on Earth, the United States of America, that our government should do everything that we can to resolve international conflict in a way that does not require war. Sometimes using military force is necessary. But I think it should be the last resort, not the first resort.
So I would suggest that we do everything that we can to try to resolve these conflicts, which are not easy. We're living in a very crazy, difficult world, without American troops getting into combat.
CHUCK TODD:
As you take a lead in the polls, people are now saying, "Okay, can Bernie Sanders be the nominee? Can he be the most electable candidate?" I know your campaign is arguing, in some ways you might be more electable than Hillary Clinton. So let me ask you, why are you more electable than Hillary Clinton?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
I think the issues, Chuck, that we are talking about, the collapse of the American middle class, the massive income and wealth inequality, why we are the only major country on Earth that doesn't guarantee health care to all people, or family or medical leave, why millions of families are finding it so hard to send their kids to college or have decent child care, these are the issues that are resonating with the American people.
And the American people, in my strong view, are sick and tired of establishment politics, of establishment economics. And they want a candidate who is prepared to stand up to the big money interests, Wall Street, corporate America, that exert so much power over our legislative life in Washington.
And I think we are generating a lot of excitement, not just in Iowa and New Hampshire, but all across this country. And that means larger voter turnout. Let me tell you this. In my strong view, the Republicans did not win last November, the Democrats lost because a lot of their supporters are demoralized, not coming out to vote. Working people, young people. I think we can strike an excitement in those groups of people, increase voter turnout, not only win the White House, but regain control over the Senate and do well in the House.
CHUCK TODD:
But let me ask you this. You have launched 58 bills this year. 35 of them don't have a single co-sponsor. And I guess my question is this: If you're president, if you can't convince colleagues in the Senate now to support some of your legislation, how are you going to work with Congress as president?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I think if you check my record, you will find that, in the last session of Congress, as the Chairman of U.S. Senate Veterans Committee, I worked extremely well with Republican leadership in the House, Congressman Jeff Miller with John McCain and others, and passed, in terms of that veterans bill, one of the more comprehensive pieces of legislation passed in that session.
I work with Republicans. If you check my record in the House, in a given year, we had more amendments passed, bipartisan, than any other member of the Congress. But let me tell you this. When you talk about the most important difficult issues, how we make public colleges and universities tuition free, how we expand Social Security, Republicans are not supportive of that.
The only way that real change takes place, and what we're doing in this campaign, is bringing millions of people together to stand up and say, "Enough is enough. Our government has got to represent all of our people, not just wealthy campaign donors."
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, what Donald Trump says about David Duke, Bernie Sanders, and whether he really plans to spend millions for the sole purpose of defeating Ted Cruz and John Kasich. Sanders about Trump and about his reaction to Tim Kaine becoming Hillary Clinton's running mate. We're in Philadelphia, site of the Democratic National Convention. Stay with us.
***COMMERCIAL BREAK***
CHUCK TODD:
Such a beautiful city here. Welcome back. More now of my interview with Donald Trump at The Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, New Jersey. And since we had a limited amount of time, I ended up speeding things up by asking Trump for some quick reaction to simply some very prominent names in the news.
(BEGIN TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
I'm just going to literally throw out a name and you'll know the question I'm asking. Bernie Sanders.
DONALD TRUMP:
Great respect for what he's done. He is being taken advantage of, and frankly, the system was rigged, and I'm the first one to say it was rigged against him. And by the way--
CHUCK TODD:
You took after him. You took after him. You said for supporting Hillary Clinton, you think he needs to--
DONALD TRUMP:
Well, I'm not a fan of Bernie Sanders. But I am a fan of one thing that he talks about: Trade. He is the only one on that side that understands trade. Now, he can't do anything about it because that's not his thing. But he has been gamed. He has been, it's a rigged system against him. And what happened with the choice of Tim Kaine was a slap in the face to Bernie Sanders and everybody. I was shocked. I love it from my standpoint, I love--
CHUCK TODD:
Why do you love the Kaine pick?
DONALD TRUMP:
Well, first of all, he took over $160,000 of gifts. And they said, "Well, they weren't really gifts, they were suits and trips and lots of different things," all for 160--
CHUCK TODD:
Legal, legal in the state of Virginia.
DONALD TRUMP:
Bob McDonnell-- I believe it was Bob McDonnell, in the meantime, he had to go to the United States Supreme Court to get out of going to jail--
CHUCK TODD:
Well, they proved to quid pro quo--
DONALD TRUMP:
--for taking a fraction of what--
CHUCK TODD:
They proved quid pro quo on that one.
DONALD TRUMP:
Excuse me, Bob McDonnell took a fraction of what Kaine took. And I think, to me, it's a big problem. Now, how do you take all these gifts? Hundreds of thousands of dollars. The other thing about him, he's bought and owned by the banks. And the third thing, he's in favor of TPP and every other trade deal that he's ever looked at. And that means he wants people not to work.
Now, he's going to change his tune. And I understand he's now going to say, "I'm against TPP." Hillary Clinton was totally in favor of TPP, which is the job killer, right? So was he. When she watched me on your show and other shows, all of a sudden she changed, because she knows she can't win that in a debate.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Ted Cruz, I'm going to amend it, are you really going to fund a super PAC to help defeat him--
DONALD TRUMP:
Well, it's not the number one thing on my mind. Look, what's on my mind is beating Hillary Clinton. What's on my mind is winning for the Republican Party. With that being said, yeah, I'll probably do a super PAC, you know, when they run against Kasich, for $10 million to $20 million, against Ted Cruz. And maybe one other person that I'm thinking about--
CHUCK TODD:
Who's that other one person?
DONALD TRUMP:
--but I won't tell you that. I mean, he's actually such a small person, I hate to give him the publicity. But yes, I will probably do that at the appropriate at time. But I'm not going to do that until--
CHUCK TODD:
Oh, give me the small person here.
DONALD TRUMP:
No, no, don't worry about it. We'll give it to you another time.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, let me ask you about this one. David Duke announced his Senate candidacy claiming your agenda for his own, or essentially saying, "Glad that you spoke out."
DONALD TRUMP:
Are you ready, before you ask the question?
CHUCK TODD:
Newt Gingrich said, "Every Republican should repudiate this guy no matter what it takes"--
DONALD TRUMP:
I did. And I do. Are you ready? I want--
CHUCK TODD:
Would you support a Democrat over David Duke if that was what was necessary to defeat him?
DONALD TRUMP:
I guess, depending on who the Democrat, but the answer would be yes. Look, the answer is, as quick as you can say it. In fact, I went to answer you before you--
DONALD TRUMP:
Because last time with another person in your position, I did it very quickly. And they said, "He didn't do it fast enough." Rebuked. Is that okay? Rebuked, done--
CHUCK TODD:
Rebuked, done. Okay. Tax returns. A lot of conspiracy theories are being out there about why-- what's in your tax returns. You would get rid of all these conspiracy theories tomorrow--
DONALD TRUMP:
Let me tell you--
CHUCK TODD:
Probably make people look silly--
DONALD TRUMP:
Let me tell you. Let me give you a little lesson on tax returns. First of all, you don't learn very much from a tax return. I put in to the federal elections group 100 and some-odd pages of my financials. It showed, as you know, that I'm much wealthier than anybody even understood, okay? Tremendous cash, tremendous assets, tremendous all that stuff. Okay, that's it. I'm going through a routine audit. Just a routine audit, and I've had it for I think 14 years, 13 years--
CHUCK TODD:
Why?
DONALD TRUMP:
Every year they audit me. It's routine government. I would never give my tax returns until the audit's finished. But remember this: Mitt Romney, four years ago, was under tremendous pressure to give his tax returns. And he held it and held it and held it, and he fought it, and he, you know, he didn't do too well, okay? But he didn't do anything wrong on his taxes. When he gave his tax returns, people forget, not now. He gave them in September, before the election--
CHUCK TODD:
So you still might release them--
DONALD TRUMP:
No, wait a minute, wait a minute. When he did, and his tax returns are a tiny peanut compared to mine, they went through his tax returns. And they found one little sentence, another little-- there was nothing wrong. And they made him look bad. In fact I think he lost his election because of that.
CHUCK TODD:
Because of the tax returns?
DONALD TRUMP:
I think he lost. And I'll tell you why: He didn't do anything wrong. Mitt Romney did nothing wrong. But they would take out of, his weren't too big. Have you ever seen mine with the picture, they're like this high?
CHUCK TODD:
I have seen that picture, yes.
DONALD TRUMP:
Okay, so they took his tax return and they found a couple of little things. Nothing wrong, just standard. And they made him look very bad, very unfair. But with all that said, I'd love to give them, but I'm under audit. When the audit's finished I'll give them.
CHUCK TODD:
Finally, Roger Ailes. Is he helping you? Is he advising you?
DONALD TRUMP:
Well, I don't want to comment. But he's been a friend of mine for a long time, and I can tell you that some of the women that are complaining, I know how much he's helped them. And even recently, and when they write books that are fairly recently released, and they say wonderful things about him.
And now all of a sudden they're saying these horrible things about him. It's very sad. Because he's a very good person. I've always found him to be just a very, very good person. And by the way, a very, very talented person. Look what he's done. So I feel very badly. But a lot of people are thinking he's going to run my campaign.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, well--
DONALD TRUMP:
My campaign's doing pretty well.
CHUCK TODD:
Mr. Trump, until we meet again.
DONALD TRUMP:
Thank you very much--
CHUCK TODD:
Thank you for your time, sir, appreciate it.
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
Up next, the man who had hoped to be the candidate being nominated by Democrats right here in Philadelphia this week, Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. What does he think of those leaked DNC e-mails? We'll get his first comments since it happened. We're going to be right back in just a minute.
***COMMERCIAL BREAK***
(BEGIN TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
Tremendous shots there of a beautiful city. Welcome back. It's not the kind of thing you want happening days before your convention. This weekend, Wikileaks released nearly 20,000 emails sent and received by members of the Democratic National Committee, some of which seem to confirm what a lot of people had suspected, that the DNC was playing favorites with Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders.
It appears Wikileaks either stole these emails or got them from a source. Remember, the DNC was hacked a few months ago. Among the emails was one from the DNC's Chief Financial Officer Brad Marshall that was looking ahead to the contests in Kentucky and West Virginia in early May. While not mentioning Sanders specifically by name, the email appeared to question Sanders' faith.
He wrote this, quote: "Does he believe in a god? I think I read he is an atheist. This could make several points difference with my peeps. My Southern Baptist peeps would draw a big difference between a Jew and an atheist." Well, Sanders has long believed that DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz was in Clinton's corner the whole campaign. Well, he joins me now. Senator Sanders, welcome back to Meet the Press.
And I should note that you talked about your belief in God last fall in an interview, I think, with your hometown paper there, so want to get that out of the way. So let me start with this question questioning your faith. Brad Marshall apologized on Facebook. Has anyone apologized to you personally? And what is your response to this entire discussion?
BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, no, nobody has apologized to me. And as you just mentioned, this really does not come as a shock to me or my supporters. There is no question but the DNC was on Secretary Clinton's side from day one. We all know that. And I think, as I have said a long time ago, that the time is now for Debbie Wasserman Schultz to step aside, not only for these issues.
We need a Democratic Party that is open, that's going to bring young people and working people into it, that is going to stand up and take on the big money interests and fight for working families. I don't think Debbie has been that type of leader. So I would hope, and I said this many months ago, that she would--
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
BERNIE SANDERS:
--step aside, we would have new leadership.
CHUCK TODD:
And do you think it needs to happen now, today, before the start of the convention?
BERNIE SANDERS:
Well--
CHUCK TODD:
Would that help calm some of your supporters down?
BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I think what is already happening is that it's clear she is not going to be speaking to the convention. That is the right thing. I think right now what we have got to focus on as Democrats is defeating perhaps the worst Republican candidate that I have seen in my lifetime. Donald Trump would be a disaster for this country. He must be defeated.
We've got to elect Secretary Clinton on every single issue: fighting for the middle class on health care, on climate change, is a far, far superior candidate to Trump. That's where I think the focus has got to be.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you believe that the DNC's apparent favoritism cost you this race?
BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I think you-- there are a lot of reasons why one loses. We started off 50 points behind Secretary Clinton. We had the opposition of virtually the entire Democratic leadership in every state in this country. And by the way, in terms of media, we did not get the kind of media attention that somebody like a Donald Trump got, because media is not necessarily interested in the issues facing the middle class, more interested in attacks in personality. So I think there were a lot of reasons.
But I will tell you this, Chuck, from the bottom of my heart, I am extraordinarily proud of the campaign that we ran. The issues that we raised, the fact that we got 13 million Americans to vote for a political revolution. People who know the economy is rigged in favor of big money, people who know that our middle class continues to decline and we have to go outside of establishment politics and economics, people who know that we need to reform a broken criminal justice system and we need comprehensive immigration reform.
The people-- what we did in our campaign is bring people together to say, "You know what? This country, our government, belongs to all of us and not just a few." So I am very proud of the campaign we ran and the supporters that came on board.
CHUCK TODD:
So just to sum up here, these leaks, these emails, it hasn't given you any pause about your support for Hillary Clinton?
BERNIE SANDERS:
No, no, no. We are going to do everything that we can to protect working families in this country. And again, Chuck, I know media is not necessarily focused on these things. But what a campaign is about is not Hillary Clinton, it's not Donald Trump. It is the people of this country, people who are working longer hours for lower wages, people who do not have health care or are underinsured.
Hillary Clinton and I have worked together on a higher education proposal which will guarantee free tuition in public colleges and universities for every family in this country making $125,000 a year or less. We're going to fight for paid family and medical leave. Those are the issues that the American people want to hear discussed, and I'm going to go around the country discussing them and making sure that Hillary Clinton is elected president.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, The Green Party presumptive nominee, Jill Stein, put out a release yesterday about the emails. And she said this: "Democratic Party elites have been caught red-handed, sabotaging a grassroots campaign that tried to bring huge numbers of young people, independents and non-voters into their party. Instead, they have shown exactly why America needs a new major party, a truly democratic party for the people." Are you going to urge your supporters not to support Jill Stein and try to thwart her efforts to recruit your supporters?
BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, you know, let me just say this. As the longest serving Independent in the history of the United States Congress, as somebody who came into office by defeating an incumbent Democratic mayor in Burlington, Vermont, I know something about third party politics. And I respect Jill.
But right now, the focus, to my mind, is to make sure that Donald Trump does not become president of the United States. I think by temperament he is unqualified to be president. I think his views-- you have a guy who's running for president who rejects science, doesn't even believe climate change is real, let alone wants to do something about it, wants to give hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks to the top two-tenths of one percent.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you--
BERNIE SANDERS:
So my job right now is to see that Donald Trump is defeated, Hillary Clinton is elected.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, he makes a big deal out of the fact that you and he agree on one big issue, and that is trade deals, that these trade deals have been bad for the country. And he basically says that Clinton and Kaine, as a ticket, aren't-- that their opposition, for instance, the TPP as sort of Johnny-come-lately, that it can't be trusted, and that Sanders supporters should support Trump if they care about trade. What do you say to that?
BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I think in terms of who can be trusted, I think the evidence is clear that there has been no candidate that I have ever seen who lies more often than does Donald Trump. I mean and that's just not me saying it, that's what any independent media analysis has shown. So in terms of trust, you really can't trust a word, I think, that Mr. Trump has to say.
In terms of the TPP, it is no secret. I think our trade policies, for many, many years, have been a disaster. They have benefited corporate America at the expense of working people. Secretary Clinton has come out in opposition to the TPP, does not want to see it--
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
BERNIE SANDERS:
--appear in the lame duck Congress. That's my view, as well.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, some of your supporters are disappointed in the pick of Tim Kaine, that he's not progressive enough. I know Tim Kaine called you after he was picked. Do you consider Tim Kaine a progressive? And are you happy with this pick?
BERNIE SANDERS:
Look, you know, the pick is Secretary Clinton's. I've known Tim Kaine for a number of years. We've served in the Senate together, obviously. Tim is a very, very smart guy. He's a very nice guy. His political views are not my political views. He is more conservative than I am. Would I have preferred to see somebody like an Elizabeth Warren selected by Secretary Clinton? Yes, I would have.
CHUCK TODD:
And then finally, do you feel as if, that you, when you got Glass-Steagall, I wanted to ask about this, because it looks like the one thing that both parties may agree on in their platforms is putting-- is being in favor of reinstating Glass-Steagall. Does this mean we will see that happen in the next Congress?
BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I'm going to do everything that I can to make it happen. You know, when we talk about our campaign, one of the things that we have been able to do, Chuck, is create the most progressive Democratic platform in the history of the Democratic Party, and that includes breaking up the large Wall Street banks and reestablishing Glass-Steagall.
I think the American people understand that we cannot continue to have a handful of reckless, irresponsible banks often acting illegally, that something has to happen. They have to be broken up.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Senator Bernie Sanders. The big speech is tomorrow night. We'll be waiting for you here in a very, very hot Philadelphia, over 100 degrees.
BERNIE SANDERS:
Okay.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Sanders, thanks for coming on. Good to see you, sir.
BERNIE SANDERS:
Thank you very much.
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