CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Terrorism in Syria and Iraq

Interview

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KEILAR: And joining me now, Senator James Lankford, Republican of Oklahoma. He is on both the Homeland Security Committee and the Intelligence Committee.

Senator, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us about this.

We know Congress has been kept apprised of this quickly moving situation. You were just in a briefing. Can you share with us anything that you're learning?

SEN. JAMES LANKFORD (R), OKLAHOMA: Actually, your oversight there that you just gave on some of the media reports were very, very well done.

What's happened in Ramadi is a relatively small group of fighters -- we think about moving in, taking a fairly large city like Ramadi, it must have taken thousands and thousands of fighters. It didn't. It was a fairly small group of fighters that went in. It's a Sunni area. And so some individuals gave them very little resistance in that community.

And they were able to cause the Iraqi army to actually flee from there. So, that's what made it very, very significant. The Iraqi army did not hold in that area. And when you look at communities like Palmyra in Syria, I know there's a lot of conversation about the ancient sites there, but there are people involved.

And while there's great concern about an ancient site that is a historical site, the more important thing are the individuals that are on the ground that are being beheaded, and killed and brutally attacked by ISIS in the movement that they have through Syria.

KEILAR: When you look at this, ISIS controlling half of Syria, these advancements in Iraq, is ISIS winning here?

LANKFORD: ISIS is definitely on the move.

The springtime is when the fighting actually picks up in greater movement in that entire region. So, I'm not surprised that they're on the move. We're not taking out their command and control. We're not limiting their communication and their opportunities to be able to plan and coordinate these well-coordinated attacks.

And we have not put the pressure needed to take Assad out. A lot of the issue that is happening in Syria is Assad is still there. And after years now the administration of saying Assad has to go, the pressure is not being applied to Russia, to Iran, the folks that are propping up Assad and Assad himself to be able to actually be removed there and to transition to another leader.

That's become a prime element that's still a major problem in that region.

KEILAR: What do you see the answer to be to that situation?

LANKFORD: Assad has to go. I mean, the way that ISIS can recruit and the rebels that are in the north and all the chaos that's happening through a lot of Syria circles around a lot of people that do not like Assad.

Assad has to be removed and then you have to actually put someone in that is a qualified leader that can start to build some trust in that area. That stops some of the recruiting to that area. So, that's a key aspect of it. We have to remove command and control.

I was surprised. The president has talked a lot about not putting boots on the ground, and then last week he put boots on the ground in Syria to actually fulfill an operation that our special operators did an excellent job on.

KEILAR: But let me stop you real quick. I just want to ask you about this, because you say someone else needs to be put in place. Does that person exist? Who is that? Do you know who that is?

LANKFORD: That is the responsibility of the administration to work with the individuals in the -- probably the southern part of Syria to be able to coordinate, raise up leaders there to be able to build the coalitions to get that done.

[18:15:01]

We can't just have a rebellion that's happening and not try to actually build coalitions and work with individuals on the ground. That is the responsibility of the administration, to be able to work through, identify leaders that can be accepted in the region and in that -- and start to rebuild a coalition.

There is no one leader that's going to unify all of Syria that suddenly everyone is going to go, yes, that's a logical place. They're not unified. They don't have a setup succession like we do in the United States.

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: By pulling Assad out of the picture, don't you run the risk of creating a void that ISIS can exploit, especially if the answer is a U.S.-handpicked leader to try to lead the nation?

LANKFORD: Yes, it can't be just a U.S.-designated puppet. That's not what I'm looking for.

But for years, we have said we're going to help them transition. We haven't done that. That is a basic element that has to be done. That has to be front and center. So, while the fight is on and we seem to be just trying to hold them and keep them from winning, our strategy doesn't seem to be to win. It's to keep them from winning. So, it's an all-defense strategy.

We're not actually doing the move that needs to occur to actually push a new leader or a set of leaders and a coalition into place. But you're right. You don't want to have a void in Syria, but we do have to transition that, because with Assad there, there's this natural recruiting that's still happening.

KEILAR: All right, Senator Lankford, stay with me, many more questions ahead after a quick break.

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[18:21:06]

KEILAR: We are following the breaking news out of Baltimore, grand jury indictments returned just a short time ago against the six officers accused in the death of Freddie Gray.

But right now, I want to take more with Senator James Lankford of Oklahoma about another breaking story that we're following, those major new gains for ISIS in Iraq and Syria.

Senator, you heard President Obama's assessment today. He said that his strategy against ISIS isn't failing. He said -- quote -- "I don't think we're losing."

I asked you before if ISIS was winning. You said they're on the move. Do you agree with the president's assessment then that the U.S. is not losing?

LANKFORD: That's a difficult call.

The standard the president is focused in on is, he wants to degrade ISIS capability. That means we're flying an aircraft in, flying over, hitting a Humvee. That's an American Humvee that was then given to the Iraqi army that was then stolen by ISIS.

Some ISIS fighters are driving it now. We fly an aircraft over and take out that Humvee. We have degraded their capability. So, under that standard, if we hit one of their vehicles, if we hit a truck, if we hit a .50-caliber machine gun nest, we're degrading their efforts.

But we seem to be annoying them more than actually slowing them down. And that's the challenge that we have right now. We're training. We should be engaged in training. We should be engaged in equipping the Iraqi army. We have -- we walked away from the Iraqi army and left them exposed.

And so they're not performing well obviously at this point and walking away from communities they should be able to hold. Where several hundred ISIS fighters can push out several thousand Iraqi army from Ramadi, we know that they're not well-equipped and they're not well-supported.

KEILAR: And in Iraq, the president commenting on they. He said, Iraqi fighters, Iraqi troops need to fight for themselves. It's not a battle that the U.S. can undertake.

And I wonder what you think about the U.S.' role in this, because recently we have heard from a number of your colleagues in the Republican Party there in the Senate, and they say that they want combat troops, U.S. combat troops, on the ground in Iraq. Do you agree with that?

LANKFORD: I do not, actually.

There's not a great need to have a big push to have a large-scale force back in Iraq or in Syria. Quite frankly, that becomes divisive again, becomes one more recruiting tool in it. We do need to help equip people. We do need to keep the coalition going.

The president is right to do a lot of the airstrikes on it, to try to do some equipping. But we are going to have to get closer into the fight to actually help provide some coordination for what's happening on the ground. We can't fight it from such a distance and help equip them.

If ISIS establishes a safe haven for terrorism in Syria and Iraq, that becomes a major issue for not just the United States, but all of the Western world and all of the region. This is a fight that will come to our door that we need to be able to take on there, not pretend it won't happen again like it did in Afghanistan, when the Taliban took leadership and we pretended that that would never come to our doors and it did.

So allowing a safe haven for terrorism anywhere in the world for this type of extremism is a direct threat to the United States and we need to be prepared to defend ourselves.

KEILAR: I want to ask you now. I want to turn you and talk to you about China, because we have some fascinating pictures from a report that Jim Sciutto filed from the air.

This is a manmade island hundreds of miles off of China's shore in the South China Sea. It's -- you can see the runway there. This is what appears to be a naval base, a military installment very far from China's coast. You have the former deputy director of the CIA, Mike Morell,

saying that war between the U.S. and China is a real risk. Do you agree? And I should also mention that a U.S. spy plane ran -- it really had a little interaction with what appears to be a navy installment there, them warning off of the area.

LANKFORD: Right.

KEILAR: Do you think this is a risk, a conflict here?

LANKFORD: It is an ongoing conflict. But it's been around for a very long time. China is pushing into international waters.

They're pushing into disputed areas and trying to establish their dominance. It's no secret that China that wants to be able to basically run the whole Pacific Rim and to say we're the dominant force. The Americans aren't going to be here.

[18:25:06]

So, the keys are actually multiple there. One, we need to express again, as the Poseidon aircraft -- I think that is what you were mentioning, one of the United States aircraft coming in -- needs to fly in that area. We need to continue to reinforce, again, these are international waters. This is not Chinese waters.

So, we need to continue to reinforce that. We need to be able to put our ships nearby and let everyone know these are international waters and continue to make that statement. All of the neighbors need to hear that. We need to continue to engage in areas like trade. This conversation about the Trans-Pacific Partnership does have an effect on what's happening with China to be able to say to China the United States and all of the Pacific, we're going to cooperate together.

And as China tries to say, we're the big dog, we have the biggest military, and we have the most active economy, we're going to run this area, we need to let them know everyone is a sovereign state and you can't push everyone around in the Pacific Rim.

KEILAR: Senator Lankford, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time today.

LANKFORD: Glad to join you.

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