Guantanamo

GUANTANAMO

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Mr. McCONNELL. I was listening carefully to my friend from Virginia, and I gather one of our colleagues equated what happened in Guantanamo to Pol Pot or some equivalent of that. My recollection--I just ask the Senator from Virginia if his recollection is similar to mine--Pol Pot murdered 1 to 2 million of his fellow countrymen.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, the Senator is correct. In World War II, with which I was going to commence my remarks in that context, I served at the very end. As a 17- or 18-year-old sailor, I was simply in a training command, but I remember that period of history very vividly.

All through my early years, prior to going into the Navy, late in the fall of 1944 and starting active service in 1945, the whole of this country was consumed with that frightful conflict in which, at the hands of Nazis, some 9 million people perished, 6 million of whom were of the Jewish faith. It is just extraordinary.

I was deeply disturbed by these comments to try to draw any analogy whatsoever to that period of history.

Then, following the Soviet gulags, I served as Secretary of the Navy during the height of the Cold War for some 5 years in the Pentagon and actually had a great deal of work with the Soviet Union at that period of time in the context of that threatening situation of the Cold War.

There is just no relationship to this. I was astonished. I did not want to let the Sun go down on this day without conveying to the Senate my own historical perspective and the danger that loose comments such as that--comparisons which have no basis in history--could do harm to the men and women serving wherever they are in the world today in this war on terrorism because this is the type of thing that is picked up and utilized by press antithetical to the interests of the United States and distorted in their own way.

It has to be addressed. I was prepared to do that.

Mr. McCONNELL. Mr. President, may I ask the Senator one other question?

Mr. WARNER. Yes.

Mr. McCONNELL. The Senator from Virginia mentioned the gulags in the Soviet period. It is my recollection--correct me if I am wrong--that up to 20 million people were murdered during that period from 1930 to 1950.

Mr. WARNER. Yes. I do not have the accurate figures. I know Stalin had purged part of his country for no other reason than he just wanted to get rid of the people by the millions. The gulags came into focus primarily during the latter chapter of the Soviet Union when people disappeared by the tens of thousands into these encampments, never to be heard from again. It is not a chapter which Russia today looks back on with any pride at all.

I feel every day that I get up, and I hear of the casualties of our brave men and women, be they in Afghanistan, Iraq or occasionally in other areas of the world--I say what is it that we can do in this Chamber, what is it that we, as citizens, can do to bring them home safely? They are making enormous sacrifices together with their family to go into harm's way to protect us here at home from the threat of terrorism.

Mr. McCONNELL. Mr. President, I thank my friend from Virginia for clearing up any notion anyone might have that anything the United States is involved in, in incarcerating prisoners, would be in any way related to experiences such as those carried out by the Nazis or by the Russians during the Stalin period.

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Mr. McCONNELL. Will the Senator yield for a question?

Mr. DURBIN. I will be happy to yield to the Senator from Kentucky.

Mr. McCONNELL. My concern was not the words of the FBI agent, but the words of the Senator from Illinois. I believe I heard the Senator repeat today--let me ask the Senator if in fact this is what he meant to say--because it was the quote I had from the Senator, not from the FBI agent, earlier yesterday or the day before, which I believe the Senator repeated today. I
was curious if the Senator does stand by his own words, not the words of the FBI agent, which I believe were:

If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was a FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would almost certainly believe that this must have been done by the Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime, Pol Pot or others, that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.

So my question of the Senator is not the words of the FBI agent but the words of the Senator from Illinois. Does the Senator from Illinois stand by these words, comparing the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners to the Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or Pol Pot or others?

Mr. DURBIN. I would say, in response to the Senator from Kentucky, in this particular incident that I read, from an FBI agent describing in detail the methods that were used on prisoners, was I trying to say: Isn't this the kind of thing that we see from repressive regimes?

Yes, this is the type of thing we expect from a repressive regime. We do not expect it from the United States. I hope the Senator from Kentucky would not expect that.

Mr. McCONNELL. Will the Senator yield?

Mr. DURBIN. Yes.

Mr. McCONNELL. Is the Senator aware that Pol Pot murdered 1 to 2 million of his fellow countrymen, the Nazis murdered from 6 to 9 million men, women, and children, mainly Jews, and the Soviets, in their gulags, murdered some estimated 20 million people over a 20-year period between 1930 and 1950?

My observation, obviously, is this a fair comparison?

Mr. DURBIN. The comparison related to interrogation techniques. It is clear, and I will state it for the record, that the horrors visited on humanity by those regimes were far greater than these interrogation techniques. But the point I was trying to make was, what do we visualize when we hear of this kind of interrogation technique?

I say to the Senator from Kentucky, I visualize regimes like those described. Did they do more? Did they do worse? Of course they did. The point I was trying to make is, this is not what America should expect. This is not what we should believe reflects our values.

Mr. McCONNELL. So the Senator thinks this is a fair comparison?

Mr. DURBIN. It is a comparison in the form of interrogation that a repressive regime goes too far, that a democracy never reaches that extreme. But to say that I am in any way diminishing the other horrors brought on by these regimes is plain wrong. Those are different elements completely.

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Mr. McCONNELL. I have just one final question, very briefly.

Mr. DURBIN. I am happy to yield.

Mr. McCONNELL. I want to make sure I understand this correctly: Is it my understanding that my good friend from Illinois stands by his own words, because he read them again today, and it is his view that even if this allegation from this one FBI agent were true--and as the Senator from Virginia has pointed out is being investigated--even assuming this allegation from this one FBI agent were true, the Senator from Illinois still believes that could be correctly equated to the treatment by the Nazis, by the Soviets in the gulags, and by the Pol Pot regime?

Is that an accurate description of that, even assuming this one allegation is proven to be true?

Mr. DURBIN. What I have said is, if you were asked, without being told where this might have occurred, as I said here directly in the RECORD, you might conclude that it was done by one of those repressive regimes because that was the kind of heavy-handed tactic they used, the kind of inhumane treatment in which they engaged. You would be surprised to learn that according to the FBI, it was something that occurred at Guantanamo in a facility under the control of the United States of America.

Madam President, let me conclude by saying that I know there is some sensitivity on this issue relating to Guantanamo. I could tell it in the hearing yesterday. I can tell it from the response today. But I continue to believe the United States should hold itself to the highest standards when it comes to the interrogation of prisoners, that we should never countenance in any way, shape, or form, the torture of prisoners we have seen in other countries by other governments in history.

That was the point I was trying to make, and it is a point I still stand by. Secretary of State Colin Powell was right when he criticized the change of the interrogation techniques by this administration and said it does not reflect well on the United States, torture does not produce good information, and that we would pay a price, sadly, in terms of public and moral opinion if we engaged in that kind of conduct. His premonition or his prophecy has turned out to be accurate. That was the point I made.

Madam President, I yield the floor.

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